Promotion & Relegation

MrE said:
This forum spouts about a New York Team that is inclusive to all. I assume the MLS spout inclusive bollocks as well.

When in actual fact the whole principle is as exclusive as they come.

All clubs should earn the right through results
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That's the point though.

The European model is EXCLUSIVE, extremely exclusive while MASQUERADING around as INCLUSIVE.

The way I see it, you have a true top league of about 5 teams. MCFC essentially bought a franchise at this table by coming along and dumping an immense amount of money to join. Nothing organic about it. Its barely any different than how an MLS franchise is purchased.

We have leagues where ~30 clubs have a legitimate shot at a league's title. You have a league where only 5 ever do. I don't want to hear romantic BS, I don't care what happened 30 or 40 years ago, sports has changed.

Leagues should be about competition, not participation. You should show up believing you can, realistically, win it at some point. We both know that's not the case in European top leagues. Eibar should remain in the second division and compete for titles, not be a punching bag in the first.

If you want to give your small club a shot at the big clubs, that's why the FA cup and league cups exist but a club that has no place with the big boys, has no place with the big boys.
 
NYCFCFan10 said:
That's the point though.

The European model is EXCLUSIVE, extremely exclusive while MASQUERADING around as INCLUSIVE.

The way I see it, you have a true top league of about 5 teams. MCFC essentially bought a franchise at this table by coming along and dumping an immense amount of money to join. Nothing organic about it. Its barely any different than how an MLS franchise is purchased.

We have leagues where ~30 clubs have a legitimate shot at a league's title. You have a league where only 5 ever do. I don't want to hear romantic BS, I don't care what happened 30 or 40 years ago, sports has changed.

Leagues should be about competition, not participation. You should show up believing you can, realistically, win it at some point. We both know that's not the case in European top leagues. Eibar should remain in the second division and compete for titles, not be a punching bag in the first.

If you want to give your small club a shot at the big clubs, that's why the FA cup and league cups exist but a club that has no place with the big boys, has no place with the big boys.
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You have obviously never supported a struggling or a small team.

Sport changes over 30 - 40 years but your method makes sure it doesn't.

Leagues are about competition, and the reward for winning that competition... being allowed to try to compete in the next level.
What you do in America is reward failure by giving it another shot.
But as has been said to me in this thread it is ingrained in you psyche... Success = Putting money in, thus cant be challenged... in all major American sports.
Maybe as has also been pointed out to me, it is just different not wrong...
Or Maybe it is that you have been brainwashed into believing biggest is best, and if you buy the biggest you should do so with the guarantee that you stay there....

I tap out here.... I have had enough of this bollocks....
I know I am right, the rest of the world is right, and you are pandering to your sporting caste system.
A system where the little people / teams are not only kept down by the sporting lords, but a system where those lords make sure they stay down. At least until they marry into the family with a dowrie.

You will never change my mind, and without hypnosis, I will never cut through into your brainwashed mind.

I will support my club in NYCFC in the league, but never the pay to play league or competition.

My Last Comment on the Subject.
 
I love relegation and promotion, who would have thought 30 odd years ago teams like Wigan, Hull, Swansea etc would be challenging the top teams and playing in Europe. Then you have a club like AFC Wimbledon who have fought all way from the counties league to playing proper league football. Thats the beauty of of the football league system, every club has aspiration to mix it with the big boys.
After a whole season of misery Birmingham score a last minute goal to stay up. Just epic scenes, its keeps things interesting all the way through the season.

With american sports like NFL you are in a conference so play the same few teams each year with no change, then if you win you play in a small cup competition for a few rounds. Formulaic, unchanging, boring.

However I don't think there is a need for promotion/relegation in the MLS at the moment. Its growing at a decent rate, great crowds and very competitive. Perhaps somewhere down the like maybe look into it again.
 
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MaineRoad said:
I love relegation and promotion, who would have thought 30 odd years ago teams like Wigan, Hull, Swansea etc would be challenging the top teams and playing in Europe. Then you have a club like AFC Wimbledon who have fought all way from the counties league to playing proper league football. Thats the beauty of of the football league system, every club has aspiration to mix it with the big boys.
After a whole season of misery Birmingham score a last minute goal to stay up. Just epic scenes, its keeps things interesting all the way through the season.

With american sports like NFL you are in a conference so play the same few teams each year with no change, then if you win you play in a small cup competition for a few rounds. Formulaic, unchanging, boring.

However I don't think there is a need for promotion/relegation in the MLS at the moment. Its growing at a decent rate, great crowds and very competitive. Perhaps somewhere down the like maybe look into it again.
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Some fair assessments there. Though I should point out that in football, there's more teams than you can possibly play in a season. Some teams in the other conference you only see once every 4 years.

In baseball, they are two separate leagues that used to only play each other for the WS. Now they play a few games a year against the other league but again, you go years without playing some teams.

Basketball is probably the most guilty of the crime.

Though for all our leagues, every team has world class talent and adding more every year so you don't mind playing them.

Can't really say the same when MCFC plays a Leicester City or Bolton so you definitely would want that turnover at the bottom of the table.
 
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By the way, I truly believe the league structure of MLS, will, in the long run, allow us to do what even the PL can't-- break Real Madrid 's and Barcelona's financial grip on the top tier talent.

We've already seen a test run of this when they bought Dempsey but I believe the league will step-in on highly valued targets like Messi, Ronaldo, etc. and pay the transfer fee as a league and thus allow clubs to only pay the players' salary.

This would give MLS a tremendous advantage. As would the fact that every MLS team will probably play in a 40,000-60,000+ seat stadium. Your independent clubs will be no match financially.
 
NYCFCFan10 said:
By the way, I truly believe the league structure of MLS, will, in the long run, allow us to do what even the PL can't-- break Real Madrid 's and Barcelona's financial grip on the top tier talent.

We've already seen a test run of this when they bought Dempsey but I believe the league will step-in on highly valued targets like Messi, Ronaldo, etc. and pay the transfer fee as a league and thus allow clubs to only pay the players' salary.

This would give MLS a tremendous advantage. As would the fact that every MLS team will probably play in a 40,000-60,000+ seat stadium. Your independent clubs will be no match financially.
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Leagues owning players for clubs in the league.... that's a whole new subject.... perhaps you might care to start a new thread on that...
For example IF the league did purchase Messi, how would he get allocated to a club ?
 
Buying into this, buying to get out of that; this has gone on for decades, and every team has done it.
Man Utd of the last 20 years, Liverpool before that, Arsenal in and around then, Chelsea 10 years ago, City today, hell, Fulham were the first club to pay a player £100 a week in the 60s - City spunked a few grand on players just prior to WW1 breaking out. There has always been disparity; it is merely that today it is far more noticeable due to the massive amounts of money often spent.

Does any of this mean a club should remain where they are? Of course not. Ups and downs, ebbs and flows are a normal thing of life, and so it is in a league structure. Whether one has spent their way to the top or gone balls to the wall and fought to their very last breath to get there, all deserve the chance to compete. People live in the here and now, and so often forget periods of dominance (Portsmouth, late 40s early 50s; Newcastle United, early 1900s; Sunderland, 1890s; Everton 1920s and 30s), and instead point at those who are perceived to be the traditional big boys. Those big boys were once small fish, but relegation and promotion have allowed them to grow.

Sheffield United first won the top flight title in 1898, and have never done it again. They are currently in League One (third tier). Without promotion and relegation they would either have remained at the top or will never again be able to fight to get back.

Refreshing the leagues every season is healthy and prevents things from becoming stale. But as I initially said some time ago, the MLS does not have it, and nor will they for the foreseeable future. At the moment it works for them, only time will tell as to whether this will remain to be the case.
 
MrE said:
Leagues owning players for clubs in the league.... that's a whole new subject.... perhaps you might care to start a new thread on that...
For example IF the league did purchase Messi, how would he get allocated to a club ?
Click to expand...
Its already happened at least once.

MLS paid Clint Dempsey's transfer fee and said "Alright where do you want to go?" I think Clint said he'd only come back for Seattle, Toronto, or LA Galaxy. So those clubs place bids and a club wins his service.
 
NYCFCFan10 said:
Its already happened at least once.

MLS paid Clint Dempsey's transfer fee and said "Alright where do you want to go?" I think Clint said he'd only come back for Seattle, Toronto, or LA Galaxy. So those clubs place bids and a club wins his service.
Click to expand...

Like I said whole different subject but I take it the clubs bid before the league put up the money ?

For example lets take the Messi Scenario

If the league pay say $100 million for him (assuming that is his free market value)

No single MLS club could afford that on present incomes (my understanding)
So the club bids say 30 million, who funds the difference ? The league and therefore the opponents ?

Or
if the clubs only pay the salary, then the league (therefore the successful clubs opponents) are funding the transfer ?

If this is correct, I am off to see the Landlord down the road, perhaps he will pay for my bar to be refitted as we operate in the same market. I cant see why he would say no to having the benefit of him paying for my facility to be better than his.... Great Idea.
 
@sbrylski 40 teams seams a little much to me. The other big four leagues in the US have 32, 30, 30, and 30. I don't see why MLS would try to grow anything past that. The established big 4 have teams they cant really support in smaller markets so I don't see much of a point in trying to get MLS past that. At lease in the foreseeable Future. As for the Pro/reg system it really only benefits the smaller market teams and gives them "hope" to get to the premier league. In this country I think the smaller market areas of the country have pretty much already coped with the fact that they have will not have a team in the top League for sports. This is why College play is so huge in areas like that. For example, I have a huge portion of my family from Nebraska with no Pro sports at all. However, you go to a college soccer game out there and there is more attendance than some pro teams. I guess all I am saying is in the US the small markets make due with what they have and don't need a shot at the Premier League to be happy.
 
Did your tax dolle...pounds pay for all the roads you've ever driven on? All the postage you've ever mailed? All the schooling you and your kids received? Healthcare? Unemployment benefits?

Paying taxes, spending money on your neighbors can benefit you as well.

Don't you also realize the Aston Villas of the world BENEFIT because ManU, ManC, Chelsea etc. has players like Ronaldo, Drogba, Rooney, RVP, Costa, etc. If Aston Villa was the biggest club in the league, that TV money would be much, much lower.

Same idea here. Don't forget that MLS also gets money from most any major soccer match played on US soil through it s SUM marketing arm. When national teams put on exhibition in the US, MLS is almost always getting a cut. Look up the Mexican national team, they play almost exclusively in the USA now. Why? Because SUM gets its money.

And MLS will pay the transfer fee, clubs pay the salary. So if it's 100 million transfer fee, they pay 100 million. Usually either a club or MLS will find a player willing to come over and they'll find out if they're close enough on salary to open the process. They won't actually buy the player until terms have been reached with a club.
 
Southampton will be fine. Lovren is great, but Liverpool paid too much. And they paid 3x what Ricky Lambert is worth. The Callum Chambers deal hurts.
 
The clubs would gladly help pay for Messi to come here and play for some random team. It means sell outs anytime his club comes to town plus increased TV revenues locally and advertising.
 
NYCFCFan10 said:
Did your tax dolle...pounds pay for all the roads you've ever driven on? All the postage you've ever mailed? All the schooling you and your kids received? Healthcare? Unemployment benefits?

Paying taxes, spending money on your neighbors can benefit you as well.

Don't you also realize the Aston Villas of the world BENEFIT because ManU, ManC, Chelsea etc. has players like Ronaldo, Drogba, Rooney, RVP, Costa, etc. If Aston Villa was the biggest club in the league, that TV money would be much, much lower.

Same idea here. Don't forget that MLS also gets money from most any major soccer match played on US soil through it s SUM marketing arm. When national teams put on exhibition in the US, MLS is almost always getting a cut. Look up the Mexican national team, they play almost exclusively in the USA now. Why? Because SUM gets its money.

And MLS will pay the transfer fee, clubs pay the salary. So if it's 100 million transfer fee, they pay 100 million. Usually either a club or MLS will find a player willing to come over and they'll find out if they're close enough on salary to open the process. They won't actually buy the player until terms have been reached with a club.
Click to expand...

Taxes... A whole other subject,

I pay plenty and whether I agree or not with how they are spent, or what they are called is a whole other matter.
But in general most taxes go on the community yes....

Of course I realise the Aston Villas benefit (as did City) from the draw of the big clubs TV revenue / prize money..
(Though to ensure the pot is shared around is this not an argument for promotion / relegation... but I dipped out of that argument so...)

Great the MLS get money though its Soccer United Marketing .... then spends it giving advantages to one of its clubs....

SUM is not Soccer United, it is merely ensuring that the proceeds of the MLS are not cascaded down the chain to NASL clubs etc...

If it works in the long run great...
But I can just see the fan reaction if the Premier League bought Messi, then gave him to QPR just to help them make the competition in the Prem a bit more exciting.

Another subject to promotion relegation altogether, but the MLS has some strange ideas.....

No matter how much soccer grows in the USA, the MLS in its current format will kill the game Stateside in the long run....
 
Remember MLS is still in a stage of growth unlike the EPL. Comparing the two strategies right now is kind of silly. The rules are always changing in MLS as it adapts to the growth it is achieving.
 
MrE said:
You have obviously never supported a struggling or a small team.

Sport changes over 30 - 40 years but your method makes sure it doesn't.

Leagues are about competition, and the reward for winning that competition... being allowed to try to compete in the next level.
What you do in America is reward failure by giving it another shot.
But as has been said to me in this thread it is ingrained in you psyche... Success = Putting money in, thus cant be challenged... in all major American sports.
Maybe as has also been pointed out to me, it is just different not wrong...
Or Maybe it is that you have been brainwashed into believing biggest is best, and if you buy the biggest you should do so with the guarantee that you stay there....

I tap out here.... I have had enough of this bollocks....
I know I am right, the rest of the world is right, and you are pandering to your sporting caste system.
A system where the little people / teams are not only kept down by the sporting lords, but a system where those lords make sure they stay down. At least until they marry into the family with a dowrie.

You will never change my mind, and without hypnosis, I will never cut through into your brainwashed mind.

I will support my club in NYCFC in the league, but never the pay to play league or competition.

My Last Comment on the Subject.
Click to expand...

Calling someone sporting lords is rich coming from someone associated with the FA.
 
Relegation would be amazing. Juergen is right. Owners will fight it tooth and nail. Too much perceived risk. So no relegation for MLS anytime soon.
 
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