Ballon d'Or Snub KDB vs scrub Phil Coutinho: By the Numbers

Midas Mulligan

Registered
Elite Donor
Donor
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 29, 2014
10,614
26,558
353
NYC
Decided not to pollute the MCFC thread with this, so I'm posting here to continue this little debate.

Taurus Taurus I don't mean to dwell, but it's a character flaw. You got me curious to go and do the research (you bastard) because I wanted to know if numbers back up my opinion that they are much closer than some people consider. After looking at the numbers, I am more convinced those who aren't talking about Phil as whatever one defines as "elite", then that's a problem with those folks and not based on how good he actually is.

So I have agreed with you KDB is an elite player. After looking at these numbers, can you not see why I would question the argument that there are just miles between them? I mean, from a productivity standpoint, there are miles, but it cuts opposite of what you've suggested.

Honestly, these sort of conversations are great fun. We should make more of an effort to have them arise organically (oh no! PARADOX time). And I'll save you the argument, yes, I still think KDB is a slightly better all-around player right now. What does it say about how we view players that in the only stat that decides matches, KDB's outrageously good numbers are pretty soundly bested by a player we've agreed is currently lesser? (disagreement here is one of degree)

2017/18 PL + UCL
KDB | Coutinho

G+A Per 90 0.82 | 1.28
WS Rating (Wt. Avg) 8.03 | 8.05

Premier League
Apps 18 | 10(1)
Mins 1548 | 853
Goals 6 | 5
Assists 8 | 5
SpG 2.3 | 4
PS% 83.4 | 80.1
AerialsWon 0.7 | 0.1
MotM 5 | 5
WS Rating 8.06 | 7.98
G+A Per 90 0.81 | 1.06

Champions League
Apps 5 | 4(1)
Mins 424 | 347
Goals 1 | 5
Assists 3 | 2
SpG 1.8 | 2.8
PS% 83.8 | 80.7
AerialsWon 0.6 | 0.4
MotM 1 | 2
WS Rating 7.92 | 8.23
G+A Per 90 0.85 | 1.82

 
What does it say about how we view players that in the only stat that decides matches, KDB's outrageously good numbers are pretty soundly bested by a player we've agreed is currently lesser?
To me it suggests that stats are lossy projections of reality, as are our intuitions, and that they should be treated as part of an insufficient set of tools we have at our disposal to share and deepen our appreciation of the game, vs. as tools to arbitrate whose subjective projection of reality is closer to the illusive objective version of reality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TabascoDiva
illusive objective version of reality
After contemplating this phrase for a few minutes, I think you meant "elusive". Either way, I like "illusive objective reality" as a nod to how what your entire post implies: objective reality itself is illusory.

That said, I don't think that's always the case, but it certainly can be when it comes to comparing attacking midfielders.
 
Decided not to pollute the MCFC thread with this, so I'm posting here to continue this little debate.

Taurus Taurus I don't mean to dwell, but it's a character flaw. You got me curious to go and do the research (you bastard) because I wanted to know if numbers back up my opinion that they are much closer than some people consider. After looking at the numbers, I am more convinced those who aren't talking about Phil as whatever one defines as "elite", then that's a problem with those folks and not based on how good he actually is.

So I have agreed with you KDB is an elite player. After looking at these numbers, can you not see why I would question the argument that there are just miles between them? I mean, from a productivity standpoint, there are miles, but it cuts opposite of what you've suggested.

Honestly, these sort of conversations are great fun. We should make more of an effort to have them arise organically (oh no! PARADOX time). And I'll save you the argument, yes, I still think KDB is a slightly better all-around player right now. What does it say about how we view players that in the only stat that decides matches, KDB's outrageously good numbers are pretty soundly bested by a player we've agreed is currently lesser? (disagreement here is one of degree)

2017/18 PL + UCL
KDB | Coutinho

G+A Per 90 0.82 | 1.28
WS Rating (Wt. Avg) 8.03 | 8.05

Premier League
Apps 18 | 10(1)
Mins 1548 | 853
Goals 6 | 5
Assists 8 | 5
SpG 2.3 | 4
PS% 83.4 | 80.1
AerialsWon 0.7 | 0.1
MotM 5 | 5
WS Rating 8.06 | 7.98
G+A Per 90 0.81 | 1.06

Champions League
Apps 5 | 4(1)
Mins 424 | 347
Goals 1 | 5
Assists 3 | 2
SpG 1.8 | 2.8
PS% 83.8 | 80.7
AerialsWon 0.6 | 0.4
MotM 1 | 2
WS Rating 7.92 | 8.23
G+A Per 90 0.85 | 1.82
I would also probably pull in Key Passes per Game, but I don't think that necessarily favors one over the other at the moment.

KDB: Prem (3.1) CL (1.8)
Coutinho: Prem (2.7) CL (2.6)

Also, I'm glad you pulled this into a separate thread, because this is a fun conversation. And also because I'm not a Man City fan, so I don't venture into that thread (though I do pull for them to win because of our connection, but honestly could give two shits). And De Bruyne is probably my favorite player to watch at the moment.
 
would you factor in strength of schedule? liverpool are out here playing against nonsense, winning 2 games 7-0 and a 3-0... essentially beating maribor 10-0... then spartak another 7-0,,,, whereas man city only beat the worst team feyenoord 4-0 and 1-0. and they're miles ahead of maribor and spartak
 
Decided not to pollute the MCFC thread with this, so I'm posting here to continue this little debate.

Taurus Taurus I don't mean to dwell, but it's a character flaw. You got me curious to go and do the research (you bastard) because I wanted to know if numbers back up my opinion that they are much closer than some people consider. After looking at the numbers, I am more convinced those who aren't talking about Phil as whatever one defines as "elite", then that's a problem with those folks and not based on how good he actually is.

So I have agreed with you KDB is an elite player. After looking at these numbers, can you not see why I would question the argument that there are just miles between them? I mean, from a productivity standpoint, there are miles, but it cuts opposite of what you've suggested.

Honestly, these sort of conversations are great fun. We should make more of an effort to have them arise organically (oh no! PARADOX time). And I'll save you the argument, yes, I still think KDB is a slightly better all-around player right now. What does it say about how we view players that in the only stat that decides matches, KDB's outrageously good numbers are pretty soundly bested by a player we've agreed is currently lesser? (disagreement here is one of degree)

2017/18 PL + UCL
KDB | Coutinho

G+A Per 90 0.82 | 1.28
WS Rating (Wt. Avg) 8.03 | 8.05

Premier League
Apps 18 | 10(1)
Mins 1548 | 853
Goals 6 | 5
Assists 8 | 5
SpG 2.3 | 4
PS% 83.4 | 80.1
AerialsWon 0.7 | 0.1
MotM 5 | 5
WS Rating 8.06 | 7.98
G+A Per 90 0.81 | 1.06

Champions League
Apps 5 | 4(1)
Mins 424 | 347
Goals 1 | 5
Assists 3 | 2
SpG 1.8 | 2.8
PS% 83.8 | 80.7
AerialsWon 0.6 | 0.4
MotM 1 | 2
WS Rating 7.92 | 8.23
G+A Per 90 0.85 | 1.82
Ha, this is basically the argument/discussion you and I had last year, seriously. Good topic to discuss especially as many things can not be backed by numbers and are subjective. I in fact rarely look up the numbers so thanks for posting . I purely describe players from what I see them do with the ball and what they are doing off the ball.

So we agree where KDB is now. Where we did not agree, was when I called it last year before he got hyped up. So I figure, why not do it again this year, so we can discuss next. Ready....

Gabriel Jesus. I predict he is really going to have a breakout year and finish ahead in Ballon d'Or then his countryman Countinho. Yes, different positions, but what I see from him, he will have an overall better PL season and be more of a factor for Brazil.

Now, we need to start a new thread for this one........
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mario
Gabriel Jesus. I predict he is really going to have a breakout year and finish ahead in Ballon d'Or then his countryman Countinho. Yes, different positions, but what I see from him, he will have an overall better PL season and be more of a factor for Brazil.
You gotta be kidding with that. That's some seriously blue glasses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christopher Jee
would you factor in strength of schedule? liverpool are out here playing against nonsense, winning 2 games 7-0 and a 3-0... essentially beating maribor 10-0... then spartak another 7-0,,,, whereas man city only beat the worst team feyenoord 4-0 and 1-0. and they're miles ahead of maribor and spartak
I mean, are those teams really that garbage? Look at Sevilla's results against them. I would argue that it's simply a case that when Liverpool is humming (read: when they aren't playing a heavily rotated squad), they can just have those games where they do it to anyone. Can happen to them, too, of course, as it has twice in PL matches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christopher Jee
I mean, are those teams really that garbage? Look at Sevilla's results against them. I would argue that it's simply a case that when Liverpool is humming (read: when they aren't playing a heavily rotated squad), they can just have those games where they do it to anyone. Can happen to them, too, of course, as it has twice in PL matches.
liverpools trash tho
 
Regardless of how the stats play out shouldn't a player's team win at least one meaningful trophy that season in order to be seriously discussed as a worthy Ballon d'Or candidate? Or maybe we could lower the bar to have one win against any of the top 3 teams in your league?
 
Regardless of how the stats play out shouldn't a player's team win at least one meaningful trophy that season in order to be seriously discussed as a worthy Ballon d'Or candidate? Or maybe we could lower the bar to have one win against any of the top 3 teams in your league?
If you are referring to my title, it's entirely in jest. Taurus Taurus and I have an ongoing debate re: these two players. I don't think either is quite at BdO level just yet.
_________________
Generally, on this topic:
What kills me is I've loved KDB as a player since Chelsea and couldn't figure out why the hell they hardly played him then, and I loved him even more after at Werder and Wolfsburg when he got to demonstrate his quality more freely. Basically, don't fucking hipster me on KDB, I was on the KDB hype train long ago.

My only point to anyone is, if you're on that train, you should be on Phil Coutinho's, too. They are both absolutely world class.
 
If you are referring to my title, it's entirely in jest. Taurus Taurus and I have an ongoing debate re: these two players. I don't think either is quite at BdO level just yet.
_________________
Generally, on this topic:
What kills me is I've loved KDB as a player since Chelsea and couldn't figure out why the hell they hardly played him then, and I loved him even more after at Werder and Wolfsburg when he got to demonstrate his quality more freely. Basically, don't fucking hipster me on KDB, I was on the KDB hype train long ago.

My only point to anyone is, if you're on that train, you should be on Phil Coutinho's, too. They are both absolutely world class.

Without the context I completely missed the joke apologies for my denseness. Jokes aside wasn't Phil Coutinho's world class legitimacy solidified over the summer by the multiple insane $$ + attempts Barca made to buy him?
 
Without the context I completely missed the joke apologies for my denseness. Jokes aside wasn't Phil Coutinho's world class legitimacy solidified over the summer by the multiple insane $$ + attempts Barca made to buy him?
No worries. That's my point...that and Phil's put up better numbers despite being younger. Glad to know someone else has some sanity.
 
This award and the people behind are all corrupt fake and incompete nt ! Ive nevet believed in the importance of it !
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Christopher Jee
I'll keep this one in my pocket......again
Pocket what you want. You were wrong before. You’re still wrong that there is some gulf between KDB and Coutinho.

You really just have a stick in your ass about him, don’t you? Are you one of those weird Manc blues that for whatever reason pretends to think anyone who plays for Liverpool is shit?
 
Pocket what you want. You were wrong before. You’re still wrong that there is some gulf between KDB and Coutinho.

You really just have a stick in your ass about him, don’t you? Are you one of those weird Manc blues that for whatever reason pretends to think anyone who plays for Liverpool is shit?
Well, don't know what else to say. It's very simple no matter how you try and complicate it. I called KDB last year over your pick of Coutinho and I'm still quite satisfied that KDB is better. No big deal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Midas Mulligan
600 less minutes than KDB, 1 less goal contribution.
I’ll be honest with you I haven’t seen a single Liverpool game this year but idk how any mid in the Premier League could be considered playing at a higher level than KDB.
The guy makes everyone around him better. His passing is on another level. The ball to Sterling yesterday was out of this world.
Also Coutinho only goal against notable competition was against Chelsea last week. Oh he did have a goal against Leicester early in the season.
KDB has come up clutch against Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool and Arsenal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoupInNYC