MLS playoffs format changes

Reminds me of the lack of a tiebreaker in the fifth set at Wimbledon.

Match took three days...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isner–Mahut_match_at_the_2010_Wimbledon_Championships

Watched it live, freaking amazing match. Possibly the highest expression of tennis to exist. Two perfectly evenly matched opponents dueling it out until one man's body simply couldn't take it anymore. If games like that are the result of a lack of tie breaking mechanics then we need to seriously look at getting rid of them across all sports.
 
Reminds me of the lack of a tiebreaker in the fifth set at Wimbledon.

Match took three days...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isner–Mahut_match_at_the_2010_Wimbledon_Championships

Haha, yeah exactly.

To weigh in on the actual stuff being discussed more, though, I don't massively like the penalty shoot-out, but I'm yet to hear an idea that I like more than it.

I kind of accept that the tie-breaker has to be something that is not regular run-of-play football for the exact reason that I linked in my previous post, and nothing else quite makes sense more than a turn-based goal-scoring contest. Making it about anything other than scoring goals would be tedious or ridiculous (no-one is going to hang around to watch a competition to ping a 50-yard ball the most accurately to the centre circle, for instance) and while it feels a little unfair basing it around a skill that only one of the four primary roles on the field specialises in, scoring goals is at least the very central tenet of the game so it makes sense, plus you could argue that scoring goals is something midfielders and goalkeepers have something to say about anyway, so it only really penalises defenders (some of whom can be among the most effective peno takers anyway). Any attempt at mixing the shoot-out up to be multi-discipline by adding in other contests to appeal to the other roles on the field would just be convoluted IMO.

As for the idea of expanding the idea of a penalty in the shoot-out to include say, dribbling, defenders and so on would surely not work. The idea of a 2-attacker, 1-defender, 1-goalkeeper set-up should in any sort of normal competition produce an even higher success rate than the current ~70% scoring rate in penalties (even my elementary FIFA skills have taught me just how easy it is to score in these situations) while adding even more players to either side runs the serious risk of turning each penalty into a canned, cut-down form of the 11-man defending-on-the-18-yard-line parking of buses which you already see enough in mismatched games, with the attackers spending literal minutes uncertainly passing the ball around the outside of the defensive line while probing slowly for the one time a defender steps out of line.

Worse, if this were to become a real thing it would be rigorously drilled by managers, meaning that the defenders would become far, far less likely to make mistakes. It would also go some way towards increasing the success rates of the better teams over the weaker, whereas one of the joys of a penalty shoot-out between teams from different divisions right now is that the blowing of the final whistle in stoppage time signals the end of the better team's natural advantage in ability - the penalty shoot-out is so random and hard to train perfectly for that the underdog's chances of winning suddenly jump up to almost exactly 50%.

The other thing I would add is that - and I am not judging this to be a bad thing, only pointing it out - I feel like any expansion of a penalty shoot-out to include more players active at once would make the plays immediately reminiscent of the kind of attack-v-defence gameplay you see in such sports as ice hockey and basketball. Again - I am not arguing that this is a bad thing. It is in some ways an interesting dynamic, and I can't dispute that both of these sports are renowned for producing fast scoring with this style. However, outside of the US and a handful of other territories, these sports aren't widely watched/played nor well-regarded, and I think that implementing this idea would immediately strike the majority of non-Americans as the Americanisation of the penalty shoot-out, which would likely make these suggestions highly unpopular in places such as Europe and could threaten to reintroduce a scenario where football in the US is played to a different set of rules to that of other countries.

tl;dr - penalty shoot-outs are the lesser of 150,000 evils
 
Haha, yeah exactly.

To weigh in on the actual stuff being discussed more, though, I don't massively like the penalty shoot-out, but I'm yet to hear an idea that I like more than it.

I kind of accept that the tie-breaker has to be something that is not regular run-of-play football for the exact reason that I linked in my previous post, and nothing else quite makes sense more than a turn-based goal-scoring contest. Making it about anything other than scoring goals would be tedious or ridiculous (no-one is going to hang around to watch a competition to ping a 50-yard ball the most accurately to the centre circle, for instance) and while it feels a little unfair basing it around a skill that only one of the four primary roles on the field specialises in, scoring goals is at least the very central tenet of the game so it makes sense, plus you could argue that scoring goals is something midfielders and goalkeepers have something to say about anyway, so it only really penalises defenders (some of whom can be among the most effective peno takers anyway). Any attempt at mixing the shoot-out up to be multi-discipline by adding in other contests to appeal to the other roles on the field would just be convoluted IMO.

As for the idea of expanding the idea of a penalty in the shoot-out to include say, dribbling, defenders and so on would surely not work. The idea of a 2-attacker, 1-defender, 1-goalkeeper set-up should in any sort of normal competition produce an even higher success rate than the current ~70% scoring rate in penalties (even my elementary FIFA skills have taught me just how easy it is to score in these situations) while adding even more players to either side runs the serious risk of turning each penalty into a canned, cut-down form of the 11-man defending-on-the-18-yard-line parking of buses which you already see enough in mismatched games, with the attackers spending literal minutes uncertainly passing the ball around the outside of the defensive line while probing slowly for the one time a defender steps out of line.

Worse, if this were to become a real thing it would be rigorously drilled by managers, meaning that the defenders would become far, far less likely to make mistakes. It would also go some way towards increasing the success rates of the better teams over the weaker, whereas one of the joys of a penalty shoot-out between teams from different divisions right now is that the blowing of the final whistle in stoppage time signals the end of the better team's natural advantage in ability - the penalty shoot-out is so random and hard to train perfectly for that the underdog's chances of winning suddenly jump up to almost exactly 50%.

The other thing I would add is that - and I am not judging this to be a bad thing, only pointing it out - I feel like any expansion of a penalty shoot-out to include more players active at once would make the plays immediately reminiscent of the kind of attack-v-defence gameplay you see in such sports as ice hockey and basketball. Again - I am not arguing that this is a bad thing. It is in some ways an interesting dynamic, and I can't dispute that both of these sports are renowned for producing fast scoring with this style. However, outside of the US and a handful of other territories, these sports aren't widely watched/played nor well-regarded, and I think that implementing this idea would immediately strike the majority of non-Americans as the Americanisation of the penalty shoot-out, which would likely make these suggestions highly unpopular in places such as Europe and could threaten to reintroduce a scenario where football in the US is played to a different set of rules to that of other countries.

tl;dr - penalty shoot-outs are the lesser of 150,000 evils

Would expanding the number of penalty takers before going to sudden death make a difference? It's currently at 5, maybe make it 7 or 10?

The only other thing I could see, would be after the 30 minutes of added time, go to golden goal. But that would just be terrible seeing players after playing 120' go to golden goal.

PKs are essentially a coin toss and that's the worst way to decide who advances.
 
Would expanding the number of penalty takers before going to sudden death make a difference? It's currently at 5, maybe make it 7 or 10?

What is your goal? Producing a winner without need for sudden death, speeding up one team winning or making it the most fair of all options? Depending on your question, it's hard to be certain but I'd say "yes", "no" and "maybe" in that order.

The only other thing I could see, would be after the 30 minutes of added time, go to golden goal. But that would just be terrible seeing players after playing 120' go to golden goal.

PKs are essentially a coin toss and that's the worst way to decide who advances.

As for golden goal, my gut feeling is to say that a game which is still deadlocked after 120 minutes and which finally gets a goal in a future 30 minute segment of play is unlikely to see an equalising goal in the same 30 minute stretch, with the chance decreasing the longer time goes on. In other words, I'd argue that golden goal becomes increasingly unnecessary as time goes on. However, I will say that I actually never had a problem with golden goal when it was in place (probably because I was a mindless teenager at the time), and I actually wouldn't care that much if it were reintroduced.
 
Just stop playing through the damn things, please. The same thing happens with the big Euro leagues. PL kicks off, plays a match or two then goes on 2 week break. Annoying as hell. But the Euro clubs all schedule friendlies for those breaks, which we should do, too, especially NYC since we don't get our squad players any minutes elsewhere.

It just makes too much sense to keep ignoring it. I find it absurd that a first division schedule just ignores FIFA recognized international dates.

Quoting this for emphasis. Gotham Gator Gotham Gator - you can't still feel the same about MLS scheduling when you see 90 players called up for international duty. That means you're talking about roughly 40% of the starting lineups are gone. And trophies are being decided within the margins of these results. It's ASININE.

Look, I get that CONMEBOL and other CONCACAF first divisions play, but those leagues are all extremely domestic (MX slightly less so, but it's internationals are not as likely to be called up due to a plethora of factors I won't get into). Because of that, they are typically only losing a few players, distributed mostly evenly across their teams. MLS is much more international - as of right now, it's the prime destination for talent from all of CONCACAF. Then, you factor in DPs and (ever-growing) Garberbucks budgets, and this is going to continue to get worse if something isn't done scheduling wise.

The on-field product for the matches during this international break will be like rolling back MLS 6-8 years. This abomination should not stand.
 
Quoting this for emphasis. Gotham Gator Gotham Gator - you can't still feel the same about MLS scheduling when you see 90 players called up for international duty. That means you're talking about roughly 40% of the starting lineups are gone. And trophies are being decided within the margins of these results. It's ASININE.

Look, I get that CONMEBOL and other CONCACAF first divisions play, but those leagues are all extremely domestic (MX slightly less so, but it's internationals are not as likely to be called up due to a plethora of factors I won't get into). Because of that, they are typically only losing a few players, distributed mostly evenly across their teams. MLS is much more international - as of right now, it's the prime destination for talent from all of CONCACAF. Then, you factor in DPs and (ever-growing) Garberbucks budgets, and this is going to continue to get worse if something isn't done scheduling wise.

The on-field product for the matches during this international break will be like rolling back MLS 6-8 years. This abomination should not stand.

Starting to agree with this. I would be in favor of starting the MLS season the week after the Super Bowl (i.e. second weekend in February), if only a soft opening re-match of the previous year's MLS Cup. It would require 3-4 away games to start the season for true cold weather teams, but that should be manageable.

This would give room to not play during international breaks (friendlies instead, CPL and Liga MX?), smooth out the playoff schedule a bit (knockout games squeezed in midweek is pretty silly), and also get our teams a few more weeks of practice before the CCL starts.
 
Starting to agree with this. I would be in favor of starting the MLS season the week after the Super Bowl (i.e. second weekend in February), if only a soft opening re-match of the previous year's MLS Cup. It would require 3-4 away games to start the season for true cold weather teams, but that should be manageable.

This would give room to not play during international breaks (friendlies instead, CPL and Liga MX?), smooth out the playoff schedule a bit (knockout games squeezed in midweek is pretty silly), and also get our teams a few more weeks of practice before the CCL starts.
Honestly, I would be ok with our first game being home against Orlando or Atlanta if the temps were 32deg. Our guys could return from preseason for two weeks of prep here and our opponent would be saying WTF when they come out of the locker room - just like that MNT match vs Mexico when they never did a warmup.
 
Quoting this for emphasis. Gotham Gator Gotham Gator - you can't still feel the same about MLS scheduling when you see 90 players called up for international duty. That means you're talking about roughly 40% of the starting lineups are gone. And trophies are being decided within the margins of these results. It's ASININE.

Look, I get that CONMEBOL and other CONCACAF first divisions play, but those leagues are all extremely domestic (MX slightly less so, but it's internationals are not as likely to be called up due to a plethora of factors I won't get into). Because of that, they are typically only losing a few players, distributed mostly evenly across their teams. MLS is much more international - as of right now, it's the prime destination for talent from all of CONCACAF. Then, you factor in DPs and (ever-growing) Garberbucks budgets, and this is going to continue to get worse if something isn't done scheduling wise.

The on-field product for the matches during this international break will be like rolling back MLS 6-8 years. This abomination should not stand.
In 2017, March 5 through October 22 is 34 weekends. Exactly enough for one game every week.
Here is the international match calendar for 2017 (Source):

January 14- Feb 5 (MLS offseason)
March 20-28 (1 weekend)
June 5-13 (1 weekend)
June 17-July 2 (Confed Cup - 3 weekends)
July 7-26 (Gold Cup - 3 weekends)
Aug 28- Sept 5 (1 weekend)
Oct 2-10 (1 weekend)
Nov 6-14 (1 weekend during playoffs)

That's 10 regular season weekend games that have to be rescheduled into double game weeks, unless you reduce the number of games in a season or lengthen the time of the season. Probably you play through the Confederations cup because so few nations are involved. That still leaves 7. And this is before you even account for NYCFC's scheduling limitations.

In contrast, the European leagues have to deal with
January 14- Feb 5 (Africa Cup 3 weekends)
March 20-28 (1 weekend)
Aug 28- Sept 5 (1 weekend)
Oct 2-10 (1 weekend)
Nov 6-14 (1 weekend)

The Premier League season runs 40 weekends. They played through the Africa Cup in January 2017. Remove the other 4 weekends leaves 36 in which to fit 38 games. One is made up on Boxing day, I'm not sure about the other. Then they have all the make-ups rescheduled for the teams that advance in the 2 cups.

So MLS definitely has it rougher. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, but the summer tournaments definitely make it harder.
 
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Starting to agree with this. I would be in favor of starting the MLS season the week after the Super Bowl (i.e. second weekend in February), if only a soft opening re-match of the previous year's MLS Cup. It would require 3-4 away games to start the season for true cold weather teams, but that should be manageable.

This would give room to not play during international breaks (friendlies instead, CPL and Liga MX?), smooth out the playoff schedule a bit (knockout games squeezed in midweek is pretty silly), and also get our teams a few more weeks of practice before the CCL starts.

Checking my proposal against Europe:

Arsenal 16/17 final game: May 27, 2017 (FA Cup Final)
Arsenal 17/18 first preseason game: July 13, 2017
Arsenal 17/18 first actual game: August 6, 2017 (Community Shield)

That's about a 6 week offseason and a 4-week preseason.

The 2017 MLS Cup will be played on 12/9/17. Six weeks off would have teams reporting to camp January 21. My proposed opening week would be February 11, which is just 3-weeks of preseason. So, a little tight.
 
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Quoting this for emphasis. Gotham Gator Gotham Gator - you can't still feel the same about MLS scheduling when you see 90 players called up for international duty. That means you're talking about roughly 40% of the starting lineups are gone. And trophies are being decided within the margins of these results. It's ASININE.

Look, I get that CONMEBOL and other CONCACAF first divisions play, but those leagues are all extremely domestic (MX slightly less so, but it's internationals are not as likely to be called up due to a plethora of factors I won't get into). Because of that, they are typically only losing a few players, distributed mostly evenly across their teams. MLS is much more international - as of right now, it's the prime destination for talent from all of CONCACAF. Then, you factor in DPs and (ever-growing) Garberbucks budgets, and this is going to continue to get worse if something isn't done scheduling wise.

The on-field product for the matches during this international break will be like rolling back MLS 6-8 years. This abomination should not stand.

Not quite sure why I am getting summoned on this one. I agree it's an issue. I did recommend starting the season earlier to help address.

There aren't that many standard international breaks during the season, and they should be easy to manage. As mentioned, MLS currently runs a half schedule during these windows, so their impact is less than one might think. But that also means it should be easy to take the next step and take those weeks off entirely.

The bigger issue is the summer tournaments. These go on for a few weeks, and it is not realistic to expect MLS to just shut down for the entire period. I think the approach for the Gold Cup wasn't bad - break for the group stage and then reconvene once a portion of the teams are eliminated. In the end, these have to be addressed on a case by case basis as each tournament is different.
 
Not quite sure why I am getting summoned on this one. I agree it's an issue. I did recommend starting the season earlier to help address.

There aren't that many standard international breaks during the season, and they should be easy to manage. As mentioned, MLS currently runs a half schedule during these windows, so their impact is less than one might think. But that also means it should be easy to take the next step and take those weeks off entirely.

The bigger issue is the summer tournaments. These go on for a few weeks, and it is not realistic to expect MLS to just shut down for the entire period. I think the approach for the Gold Cup wasn't bad - break for the group stage and then reconvene once a portion of the teams are eliminated. In the end, these have to be addressed on a case by case basis as each tournament is different.
I thought you and I had discussed this previously. Must have been wrong. My bad.

Eta: Actually, we had. Looks like we mostly agreed. Happens so rarely, I just figured we didn't. Haha
 
Personally, I'd love going to one match per round (and voted accordingly in some MLS survey), and think it'll help w/ casual fans and TV ratings a lot, too. But I don't like what they're saying about extending the regular season and beginning playoffs after the November international break. Instead, they should end the regular season a hair earlier, and finish playoffs and MLS cup before the November international break. No more MLS Cup in sub-freezing weather, please! That's not how the game is meant to be played, and not the best way to showcase it.
 
Personally, I'd love going to one match per round (and voted accordingly in some MLS survey), and think it'll help w/ casual fans and TV ratings a lot, too. But I don't like what they're saying about extending the regular season and beginning playoffs after the November international break. Instead, they should end the regular season a hair earlier, and finish playoffs and MLS cup before the November international break. No more MLS Cup in sub-freezing weather, please! That's not how the game is meant to be played, and not the best way to showcase it.

Exactly. It seems ludicrous to me that they identify that the international break takes a lot of the oomph out of the play-offs, and then seem to think that running the whole play-off series after the break will not suffer that effect in any way.
 
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Exactly. It seems ludicrous to me that they identify that the international break takes a lot of the oomph out of the play-offs, and then seem to think that running the whole play-off series after the break will not suffer that effect in any way.

The challenge is that there are international breaks every 4-5 weeks in the fall - one each in September, October and November. That makes it tough.

Perhaps it would be possible to end the season with the October break (this will be Oct 8-16 next year) and then try and squeeze everything in - or maybe everything but the final - before the next break in November (that will be Nov 12-20). You'd basically have 4 weeks to squeeze in 5-6 rounds of games. I personally wouldn't mind doing everything but the MLS Cup and having that be over Thanksgiving weekend. That would provide a nice run of games and then a reasonable 2 week break before the championship.
 
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Why do you guys want to shorten the season?

We need to respect the damn international breaks. And we need to shorten the duration between seasons, however that can be done.

I don’t agree with having 4-5 months off for non-playoff teams. It is a constraint on player development that the league is willfully implementing.

Again, as it applies elsewhere, also here: if you want to participate in the global transfer market as key leaders have stated, you should come closer to reflecting those training schedules, if not the game schedules themselves. You certainly don’t need to make things even more condensed and out of sync.
 
I've been arguing for a group stage for a while now. Grant Wahl is now onboard:

https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/10/31/mls-playoff-format-fix-solution

His schedule is a little different from mine, and involves any play-in games to be played before the international break, but the rest of the tournament played after. Somewhat surprisingly, it fits well with every team getting four days off between matches.

Saturday, November 18: Two Western Conference Group Games

Sunday, November 19: Two Eastern Conference Group Games

Thursday, November 23: Two Western Conference Group Games (There’s nothing wrong with Thanksgiving games.)

Friday, November 24: Two Eastern Conference Group Games

Tuesday, November 28: Two Western Conference Group Games (Simultaneous)

Wednesday, November 29: Two Eastern Conference Group Games (Simultaneous)

Sunday, December 3: Western Conference Final

Monday, December 4: Eastern Conference Final

Saturday, December 9: MLS Cup Final (hosted by finalist with better regular-season record)

I could get behind this for sure.
 
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