MLS playoffs format changes

[Gotham Gator]

I've never been a fan of group stages for playoffs, and I am a skeptic that things are as broken as people like to suggest.

The biggest problem is the international break in November, but I don't know what you do about that, except maybe finish everything but the championship before then.

 

[mgarbowski]

I've never been a fan of group stages for playoffs, and I am a skeptic that things are as broken as people like to suggest.

I'm seeing a lot of unhappiness with the 2-game series.* Too likely that the first game will either be boring or render the second game a near irrelevancy. OTOH maybe the unhappy people are just more vocal.

* North America only.

 

[sbrylski]

I've never been a fan of group stages for playoffs, and I am a skeptic that things are as broken as people like to suggest.

The biggest problem is the international break in November, but I don't know what you do about that, except maybe finish everything but the championship before then.

Compare our actual postseason schedules...

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2016

1. BYE
2. @TOR
3. TOR

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2017

1. BYE
2. @CLB
3. CLB

...To our postseason schedule under Wahl's proposed format:

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2016

1. @NYR
2. TOR
3. DCU

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2017

1. @TOR
2. CHI
3. ATL

It just looks more exciting. A 3-game free-for-all between 4 teams for 2 semifinal spots. The 2 group winners host the semis, so every point matters, even if you've already qualified going into the final match with 2 wins.

 

[Gotham Gator]

I'm seeing a lot of unhappiness with the 2-game series.* Too likely that the first game will either be boring or render the second game a near irrelevancy. OTOH maybe the unhappy people are just more vocal.

* North America only.

I think your asterisk is the weakness in the argument. That series works well everywhere else, but two Western matchups happen to be boring, so everyone wants to throw it out.

 

[mgarbowski]

I think your asterisk is the weakness in the argument. That series works well everywhere else, but two Western matchups happen to be boring, so everyone wants to throw it out.

?!?!?!

What? Something doesn't work well here, but we should keep doing it because it is good in Europe? Or CONCACAF likes it? Or something. I can't even put lipstick on this pig.
Look, tell me you think my opinion of the 2-game series is wrong and why. I can respect that. Arguing I should take my medicine because that's how the world does it is a non-starter. Single table with no playoffs then, anyway.

 

[mgarbowski]

I think your asterisk is the weakness in the argument. That series works well everywhere else, but two Western matchups happen to be boring, so everyone wants to throw it out.

?!?!?!

What? Something doesn't work well here, but we should keep doing it because it is good in Europe? Or CONCACAF likes it? Or something. I can't even put lipstick on this pig.
Look, tell me you think my opinion of the 2-game series is wrong and why. I can respect that. Arguing I should take my medicine because that's how the world does it is a non-starter. Single table with no playoffs then, anyway.

PS: Or just disagree as a matter of opinion and leave it at that.

We should do it because the world does it? What country is this?

 

[adam]

Compare our actual postseason schedules...

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2016

1. BYE
2. @TOR
3. TOR

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2017

1. BYE
2. @CLB
3. CLB

...To our postseason schedule under Wahl's proposed format:

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2016

1. @NYR
2. TOR
3. DCU

NYCFC Playoff Schedule 2017

1. @TOR
2. CHI
3. ATL

It just looks more exciting. A 3-game free-for-all between 4 teams for 2 semifinal spots. The 2 group winners host the semis, so every point matters, even if you've already qualified going into the final match with 2 wins.

Nice work drawing it out. Much more exciting!

I won’t even nitpick you got the 4th seed team wrong by not accounting to knockout matches Whal suggested. But then again you’d have to make an assumption of which wild card team would get #4 if the they played each other. This year NJ vs CLB...

 

[Fantazma]

PS: Or just disagree as a matter of opinion and leave it at that.

We should do it because the world does it? What country is this?

the same country that failed to make the WC and many are wanting to do everything "like everyone else" since methods here may not be the best.

look everyone is complaining because of the boring ass two first legs of the western conference, but changing it to something else doesnt guarantee any more exciting games. even in champions league every year everyone is complaining about away goals

i personally would skip the wild card and just go straight to the top 4 and do home away there OR keep the six but just do single games all the way, it may also shorten the calendar which i feel seems to go on for way too long

 

[sbrylski]

the same country that failed to make the WC and many are wanting to do everything "like everyone else" since methods here may not be the best.

I don't think MLS playoff format has much to do with the USMNT's failure to make the World Cup. Change for change's sake is not good either.

look everyone is complaining because of the boring ass two first legs of the western conference, but changing it to something else doesnt guarantee any more exciting games. even in champions league every year everyone is complaining about away goals

1. Many people have been asking for a format change for a while, this is not a new movement.

2. Correct, simply changing it doesn't guarantee more exciting games. But we aren't dealing with crazy, untested hypotheticals here. All these playoff formats have been tried around the world, we already know the pros and cons of each, including how well they induce excitement.

3. I'm lost at how invoking a criticism of the format in Europe is somehow a defense of using it here?

i personally would skip the wild card and just go straight to the top 4 and do home away there OR keep the six but just do single games all the way, it may also shorten the calendar which i feel seems to go on for way too long

The knockouts are the most exciting games, no reason to shed them.

Also, there seems to be a tradeoff between playoff size. Increase the size, and many people complain that it devalues the regular season. But it never seems to be said that when reducing the size (to 8 of 28) will eliminate many more teams earlier, which makes the regular season less interesting.

Keep the middle 50% fighting for position until the last week. Then have them knock each other out in the first week of the playoffs.

Just like the "Hex," I also love the idea of fighting all year to get into the "Quads" or some other marketing term.

 

[mgarbowski]

The proposal is a group stage followed by single game elimination.
Let's think about if any prestigious international soccer competition follows that format.
Like maybe the World Cup.

 

[Fantazma]

The proposal is a group stage followed by single game elimination.
Let's think about if any prestigious international soccer competition follows that format.
Like maybe the World Cup.

but the world cup does not have a regular season before the group stage

 

[mgarbowski]

Circling back to how this whole USA vs the World sub-argument started, I don't think Gotham Gator ever meant we could only do something favored internationally. This is really a distraction even by forum standards.

Gator said he didn't think the system in place is broken, including the 2-game ties.
I said I think there's a consensus growing that the 2-game format is too prone to give boring competitions. I added 2 disclaimers: (1) I'm not sure this consensus I perceive is accurate, and (2) I'm talking about only the relevant MLS market of North America. The purpose of that latter was to forestall a potential argument I though everyone would agree was irrelevant, which is that the 2-game series is big in UEFA, for example. Because that's fine for them, but if the MLS market prefers single game knockouts who cares. Let them serve their market and MLS serve its market. So I said I was only referring to the N.Am market to be clear.
But Gator seemed to think I was acknowledging a weakness, or maybe not. I'm honestly not sure what the point of his his rejoinder was, so I won't try to characterize it, except to say I don't think he meant we had to follow some previously proscribed format.
Then it just spiraled into even more irrelevancy.

 

[mgarbowski]

but the world cup does not have a regular season before the group stage

Are we really limited to a format exactly used elsewhere? If so, why? If not, what is your point?

What about the status quo? Is there any other league or competition in the world that has the format we have now, with a regular season, then a 1-game knockout round which 4 teams skip, then a 2-legged set, then another 2-legged set, and then a 1-game championship? If not, and the rule is our format must match something that already exists, then change is mandatory.

 

[Fantazma]

I don't think MLS playoff format has much to do with the USMNT's failure to make the World Cup. Change for change's sake is not good either.



1. Many people have been asking for a format change for a while, this is not a new movement.

2. Correct, simply changing it doesn't guarantee more exciting games. But we aren't dealing with crazy, untested hypotheticals here. All these playoff formats have been tried around the world, we already know the pros and cons of each, including how well they induce excitement.

3. I'm lost at how invoking a criticism of the format in Europe is somehow a defense of using it here?



The knockouts are the most exciting games, no reason to shed them.

Also, there seems to be a tradeoff between playoff size. Increase the size, and many people complain that it devalues the regular season. But it never seems to be said that when reducing the size (to 8 of 28) will eliminate many more teams earlier, which makes the regular season less interesting.

Keep the middle 50% fighting for position until the last week. Then have them knock each other out in the first week of the playoffs.

Just like the "Hex," I also love the idea of fighting all year to get into the "Quads" or some other marketing term.

maybe because i been really following since 2015 i didnt notice much until now. i mention the champions league because there will always be people who dont like a certain format or certain rules ( away goals, golden goal, silver goal etc) so that will never change. i dont think there is anything like group stage etc post season out there...i know scottish league splits the table in half and have yet another round with points carried over but feels very meh since the points from previous "phase" get carried over.

a bigger size does devalue the regular season, but i have said before...keep the same amount and just make it a single game knockout all the way no two leg stuff. you still keep the excitement of the knockout rounds.

if you reduce the regular season games by a few games ( as in get rid of the "third" game we play with certain teams) then maybe ill be ok with this group stage idea, but i know that wont last long since more teams will join the league.

all in all it is what it is since im usually fully focused on nycfc and watch the final anytime we are eliminated as i dont really watch the rest of the playoffs as much. there is no one way to "fix" this

EDIT: oh the whole NT thing ....yea change is to be measured but we cant limit ourselves saying oh were are 100% fine doing what we doing....MLS playoffs have nothing to do with this just throwing this out there as that we could looks outside for certain things

 

[Fantazma]

Are we really limited to a format exactly used elsewhere? If so, why? If not, what is your point?

What about the status quo? Is there any other league or competition in the world that has the format we have now, with a regular season, then a 1-game knockout round which 4 teams skip, then a 2-legged set, then another 2-legged set, and then a 1-game championship? If not, and the rule is our format must match something that already exists, then change is mandatory.

im cool with the format now ....or just change to single knockout all the way ( no two legs)....i just dont like this idea of a group stage in between a regular season and a semi-final /final just extra games that will also have boring games

again, no one will be happy ever no matter the format

 

[Keith Putnam]

again, no one will be happy ever no matter the format

Maybe we could do away with interconference play during the regular season, decide the conference winners by table position, and then send the #1 in the West and #1 in the East to a single-elimination Cup championship game. Sorta combines the traditional purely table-based championship with the playoffs that are de rigeur for American sports.

 

[SoupInNYC]

but the world cup does not have a regular season before the group stage

Kinda it does. Each confederation has its own qualifying that results in teams that make the final and go into groups.

If you look at the MLS regular season as the "qualifying" portion of that, then there are some similarities.

I am one who isn't certain that the current system is broken, but I'm definitely intrigued by what other options are out there and if improvements can be made.

 

[Fantazma]

Kinda it does. Each confederation has its own qualifying that results in teams that make the final and go into groups.

If you look at the MLS regular season as the "qualifying" portion of that, then there are some similarities.

I am one who isn't certain that the current system is broken, but I'm definitely intrigued by what other options are out there and if improvements can be made.

i mean to me when i think or regular season i think everyone playing each other once at least and that doesnt really happen for the WCQ ( even in UEFA you get assigned a group...spain is not playing germany and england on their way to a WC). there are rounds in many parts and teams advance to the next

i see your point of it being a "phase" before the WC group stages

and in your example the regular season is a "phase" before the playoffs

 

[ZYanksRule]

The thing that really annoys me about the current format is Leg 1 being on the road for the higher-seeded team. It basically allows the third or fourth best team in a conference to start the playoffs with back-to-back home games, and odds are the top seed might have to claw back a deficit. Leg 1 changes how you play Leg 2, so I almost thing Leg 1 is far more important for the top seed to play at home.

At the very least, teams should be given the option.

 

[Keith Putnam]

At the very least, teams should be given the option.

Option is a good idea. The theory as it stands, of course, is that playing the second leg at home gives you home field advantage when you might need it because of, say, a poor away performance.