2019 Roster Discussion

[Shwafta]

I took it to mean that selling jerseys is a proxy for fan interest, and we do better on both with big names.

Also, Ring? I guess people like the Captain. I would expect the goal scorers to do better, but Taty, Heber and Mitrita were all late bloomers this year to differing degrees. Event then, I would have expected maxi to sell more than Ring.

It's important to have a big name in NYC so we can have someone make the best selling jersey list?

That's not very high on my priorities for the club and I hope the Front Office isn't prioritizing jersey sales when looking to sign someone.

Mark's point is what I meant, sorry for not explaining properly.

The point I see is, even with the insane players we have this year (maxi, heber having crazy seasons...) they aren't higher than Ring, and they aren't even in the top 25, while other players, who I'd never consider 'stardom' are on that list. Put half the players on that list on our team, they don't sell in the top 25.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Is there anything on which teams are selling the most jerseys? I would imagine we are selling just as many (or close to it), but fewer are customized for a player.

 

[LionNYC]

Bobby Warshaw, this year, again spewing his xenophobia when it comes to MLS players in the playoffs.

All of their spine players have been among the best at their respective positions this year. My only hesitation about NYCFC: domestic championship experience matters. A through line between the last five MLS Cup winners is that they all had a domestic veteran among the outfield players, something not possessed by Maxime Chanot, Alexander Callens, Alex Ring, Maxi Moralez and Heber. Why that matters is hard to articulate, but it’s enough of a trend that it’s something to think about.

Warshaw: Ranking the spines of all 14 MLS playoff teams | MLSSoccer.com

Warshaw: This playoff team has the strongest spine

www.mlssoccer.com

 

[moogoo]

I took it to mean that selling jerseys is a proxy for fan interest, and we do better on both with big names.

Also, Ring? I guess people like the Captain. I would expect the goal scorers to do better, but Taty, Heber and Mitrita were all late bloomers this year to differing degrees. Event then, I would have expected maxi to sell more than Ring.

i think most people buying a maxi jersey already have one. Ring is more in the limelight now since he's captain.

Bobby Warshaw, this year, again spewing his xenophobia when it comes to MLS players in the playoffs.

All of their spine players have been among the best at their respective positions this year. My only hesitation about NYCFC: domestic championship experience matters. A through line between the last five MLS Cup winners is that they all had a domestic veteran among the outfield players, something not possessed by Maxime Chanot, Alexander Callens, Alex Ring, Maxi Moralez and Heber. Why that matters is hard to articulate, but it’s enough of a trend that it’s something to think about.

Warshaw: Ranking the spines of all 14 MLS playoff teams | MLSSoccer.com

Warshaw: This playoff team has the strongest spine

www.mlssoccer.com

i don't get that argument at all. Every team has to start somewhere. Everyone can't be past winners. He's an idiot.

 

[canchon]

Bobby Warshaw, this year, again spewing his xenophobia when it comes to MLS players in the playoffs.

All of their spine players have been among the best at their respective positions this year. My only hesitation about NYCFC: domestic championship experience matters. A through line between the last five MLS Cup winners is that they all had a domestic veteran among the outfield players, something not possessed by Maxime Chanot, Alexander Callens, Alex Ring, Maxi Moralez and Heber. Why that matters is hard to articulate, but it’s enough of a trend that it’s something to think about.

Warshaw: Ranking the spines of all 14 MLS playoff teams | MLSSoccer.com

Warshaw: This playoff team has the strongest spine

www.mlssoccer.com

Warshaw has this theory that you can’t win MLS without a domestic centerback. Who cares where they are from as long as they can play?

also, isn’t Vela a winger? How’s he part of the “spine” - way to cherry pick to fit your hypothesis.

 

[mgarbowski]

i don't get that argument at all. Every team has to start somewhere. Everyone can't be past winners. He's an idiot.

I'm not defending Warshaw's take, but it's not as dumb as all that and you're arguing a strawman. As the article points out, Atlanta has Parkhurst,, LAFC has Zimmerman, Minnesota has Opara and Alonso. Those are all recent expansion teams who have MLS veterans contributing with 7+ years MLS experience. So saying "every team has to start somewhere" is irrelevant to Warshaw's point. Obviously brand new teams, even ones who entered the league after we did, teams can have the experience Warshaw thinks is important. NYCFC built a different way.

Warshaw's point is that recent Cup winners have all had someone like that. Warshaw thinks there is causation. It's up to our guys to prove it's just correlation.

Warshaw's other logical flaw is confusing the possibility that having a domestic veteran is helpful with having a domestic veteran is a prerequisite.

 

[moogoo]

I'm not defending Warshaw's take, but it's not as dumb as all that and you're arguing a strawman. As the article points out, Atlanta has Parkhurst,, LAFC has Zimmerman, Minnesota has Opara and Alonso. Those are all recent expansion teams who have MLS veterans contributing with 7+ years MLS experience. So saying "every team has to start somewhere" is irrelevant to Warshaw's point. Obviously brand new teams, even ones who entered the league after we did, teams can have the experience Warshaw thinks is important. NYCFC built a different way.

Warshaw's point is that recent Cup winners have all had someone like that. Warshaw thinks there is causation. It's up to our guys to prove it's just correlation.

Warshaw's other logical flaw is confusing the possibility that having a domestic veteran is helpful with having a domestic veteran is a prerequisite.

see, i didn't read his argument that way. you're saying he's arguing that teams with a MLS veteran is important to winning championships. he stated "domestic championship experience maters". to me that means, he's arguing that having players who have played on championship teams in important positions is what wins you championships. don't get me wrong, having experience in these situations DOES mater but only to a point. All it really gives you is the ability to handle the pressure, the nerves, and the stress of the higher level competition and intensity. We have experienced players in our spine. They may not be MLS championship veterans, but almost all have played at the international level in big tournaments. That's why I don't think his argument really makes sense. he seems to place too much weight on MLS _championship_ experience. seems like a common theme among MLS analysts though as they tend to give prefrence to teams who have won MLS cup before.

 

[Gotham Gator]

How many MLS teams could you say have a player like that? 70%? 80% 90%?

If most teams have at least one U.S., MLS veteran on the roster, it shouldn't be surprising that most MLS Cup winners are the same. It certainly doesn't prove anything.

 

[moogoo]

How many MLS teams could you say have a player like that? 70%? 80% 90%?

If most teams have at least one U.S., MLS veteran on the roster, it shouldn't be surprising that most MLS Cup winners are the same. It certainly doesn't prove anything.

that's what i don't get. is warshaw placing importance on having a US player with MLS experience? or a player with MLS CUP (i.e., championship) experience?

 

[mgarbowski]

see, i didn't read his argument that way. you're saying he's arguing that teams with a MLS veteran is important to winning championships. he stated "domestic championship experience maters". to me that means, he's arguing that having players who have played on championship teams in important positions is what wins you championships. don't get me wrong, having experience in these situations DOES mater but only to a point. All it really gives you is the ability to handle the pressure, the nerves, and the stress of the higher level competition and intensity. We have experienced players in our spine. They may not be MLS championship veterans, but almost all have played at the international level in big tournaments. That's why I don't think his argument really makes sense. he seems to place too much weight on MLS _championship_ experience. seems like a common theme among MLS analysts though as they tend to give prefrence to teams who have won MLS cup before.

He's not a very adept writer. I see your point, but I'm pretty sure my take is right because of what canchon noted above, which is based on something Warshaw wrote 2-3 years ago. He has noticed that MLS Cup winners usually have veteran domestic players and thinks that it is a necessity.

 

[mgarbowski]

More on Warshaw's take - I think he might reactively agree with both the proposition that you need someone with MLS experience and that you need someone who won in MLS before (related but different takes). They are both the kind of things that lazy analysts love to say and which are always true except when they're not. It's like the rust/rest thing. It's so ubiquitous that getting annoyed with it is like being annoyed that it's hot in summer. Make fun of it and move on.

 

[SoupInNYC]

More on Warshaw's take - I think he might reactively agree with both the proposition that you need someone with MLS experience and that you need someone who won in MLS before (related but different takes). They are both the kind of things that lazy analysts love to say and which are always true except when they're not. It's like the rust/rest thing. It's so ubiquitous that getting annoyed with it is like being annoyed that it's hot in summer. make fun of it and move on.

Well I went ahead and spent too much time looking into this looking back to the 2013 MLS Cup Final.

• The 2013 MLS Cup was won by Sporting KC. On that team, they had:
  • Paulo Nagamura who went 120' for them. He also went 120' in the 2005 MLS Cup Final win for LA Galaxy.
• The 2014 MLS Cup was won by LA Galaxy. I did not go into detail for them since they won it in 2011 and 2012 as well, so I just assumed they had multiple MLS Cup winners on their roster.
• The 2015 MLS Cup was won by the Portland Timbers. On that team, they had:
  • Nat Borchers who went 90' for them. He also went 90' in the 2009 MLS Cup Final win for RSL
  • Will Johnson who was an unused sub. He went 46' in the 2009 MLS Cup Final win for RSL.
• The 2016 MLS Cup was won by the Seattle Sounders. On that team, they had:
  • Chad Marshall who went 120' for them. He also went 90' in the 2008 MLS Cup Final win for Columbus Crew
  • Brad Evans who went 12' for them. He also went 90' in the 2008 MLS Cup Final win for Columbus Crew
• The 2017 MLS Cup was won by Toronto. On that team, they had:
  • Drew Moor who went 90' for them. He also went 120' in the 2010 MLS Cup Final win for Colorado Rapids
• The 2018 MLS Cup was won by Atlanta. On that team, they had:
  • Jeff Larentowicz who went 90' for them. He also went 120' in the 2010 MLS Cup Final win for Colorado Rapids
  • Darlington Nagbe who went 90' for them. He also went 90' in the 2015 MLS Cup Final win for Portland Timbers

So yeah, there is a bit of a history with this and the players have played significant minutes in both finals. But, it's really hard to say how much winning a previous cup, and specifically the MLS Cup, helped their team win it.

My take on this, is this is something that Warshaw dug up to use as a talking point, but it's really nothing all that significant.

 

[mgarbowski]

Well I went ahead and spent too much time looking into this looking back to the 2013 MLS Cup Final.

• The 2013 MLS Cup was won by Sporting KC. On that team, they had:
  • Paulo Nagamura who went 120' for them. He also went 120' in the 2005 MLS Cup Final win for LA Galaxy.
• The 2014 MLS Cup was won by LA Galaxy. I did not go into detail for them since they won it in 2011 and 2012 as well, so I just assumed they had multiple MLS Cup winners on their roster.
• The 2015 MLS Cup was won by the Portland Timbers. On that team, they had:
  • Nat Borchers who went 90' for them. He also went 90' in the 2009 MLS Cup Final win for RSL
  • Will Johnson who was an unused sub. He went 46' in the 2009 MLS Cup Final win for RSL.
• The 2016 MLS Cup was won by the Seattle Sounders. On that team, they had:
  • Chad Marshall who went 120' for them. He also went 90' in the 2008 MLS Cup Final win for Columbus Crew
  • Brad Evans who went 12' for them. He also went 90' in the 2008 MLS Cup Final win for Columbus Crew
• The 2017 MLS Cup was won by Toronto. On that team, they had:
  • Drew Moor who went 90' for them. He also went 120' in the 2010 MLS Cup Final win for Colorado Rapids
• The 2018 MLS Cup was won by Atlanta. On that team, they had:
  • Jeff Larentowicz who went 90' for them. He also went 120' in the 2010 MLS Cup Final win for Colorado Rapids
  • Darlington Nagbe who went 90' for them. He also went 90' in the 2015 MLS Cup Final win for Portland Timbers

So yeah, there is a bit of a history with this and the players have played significant minutes in both finals. But, it's really hard to say how much winning a previous cup, and specifically the MLS Cup, helped their team win it.

My take on this, is this is something that Warshaw dug up to use as a talking point, but it's really nothing all that significant.

Funny, I did the same for the idea that you just need a MLS veteran of 6-7 years at least, and confirmed the same, though I won't list them (and it's many of the same guys).

Besides all the reasons you and I and others have mentioned why this is a dubious take, is the fact that until maybe 2017, you could not build an MLS team the way NYCFC is built now. So there almost could not be any teams that did not have savvy MLS veterans except for those in a complete rebuild mode. And with those players rarely being lifers at any one team due to the nature of the league roster structure, probably somebody on every roster played in an MLS Cup somewhere. Really last year was probably the first time it was functionally possible that a team could have been constructed without players like that and contend. And it is not a slight to Larentowicz, Nagbe or Parkhurst (Crew 2015) to say they were not the prime reasons Atlanta won. The main drivers were league and country newcomers who blew up the model for building a team in MLS.

 

[ManhattanValley]

Why that matters is hard to articulate, but it’s enough of a trend that it’s something to think about.

Dog whistles are notoriously hard to articulate.

 

[mgarbowski]

Warshaw lists 15 players from his 3 highest ranked teams. Of those, 7 were born in Latin America, 4 in Europe, 1 in Africa, and 2 are African-American or African-Canadian. That's 14 of the top 15 players listed.
What is that a dog whistle for and who are the dogs?

 

[Christopher Jee]

Warshaw lists 15 players from his 3 highest ranked teams. Of those, 7 were born in Latin America, 4 in Europe, 1 in Africa, and 2 are African-American or African-Canadian. That's 14 of the top 15 players listed.
What is that a dog whistle for and who are the dogs?

The layering of shoddy critical thinking in this thread (not yours) is something to behold (and enliven an otherwise football-free and therefore flat period).

Dog whistles are notoriously hard to articulate.

Just because p implies q does not mean that q implies p.

It's hard to articulate why dog whistles are notoriously hard to articulate, but that doesn't mean that saying "dog whistles are notoriously hard to articulate" is necessarily a dog whistle. But in this case, the irony is that - if I'm not mistaken - it is.

 

[413Blue]

What?