2021 Roster Discussion

EganSoccerWords

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I have no idea about new rules covering loans from affiliated clubs.

In the past, I understood the rule to be that for loan deals with related entities the loaning team cannot subsidize the player's salary, because that would be a salary cap avoidance cheat. I think that acquisition costs paid by the loaning team can be kept on the books of the loaning team and not charged to the MLS club. If correct, this is a partial, legal cap avoidance strategy. So we had to pay the salaries for Facey, Angelino and Herrera and I think that any acquisition costs paid by MCFC was kept off our books.

There also were rumors about a possible special deal regarding player loans when CFG paid its then record expansion fee to enter MLS, but I've never seen anything specific to either back that up or evidence it was used.
Acquisition costs always factored into the budget charge of loaned players, but its acquistion costs paid the year the player is loaned not total costs. This was never an issue for Angelino or Facey because they had come up from Man City academy so there were no acquisition costs. Yangel would have had to have been a DP, but CFG structured his transfer so that the transfer fee was paid in installments to keep him under the DP threshold.
 

twsj91

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Acquisition costs always factored into the budget charge of loaned players, but its acquistion costs paid the year the player is loaned not total costs. This was never an issue for Angelino or Facey because they had come up from Man City academy so there were no acquisition costs. Yangel would have had to have been a DP, but CFG structured his transfer so that the transfer fee was paid in installments to keep him under the DP threshold.
It truly amazes me how some of you guys know the stuff that you do with all the insane roster rules and chaotic transfers that take place. Just wanna say thank you to all of you who make it easier for us to understand the ins and outs of this league
 

gbservis

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Acquisition costs always factored into the budget charge of loaned players, but its acquistion costs paid the year the player is loaned not total costs. This was never an issue for Angelino or Facey because they had come up from Man City academy so there were no acquisition costs. Yangel would have had to have been a DP, but CFG structured his transfer so that the transfer fee was paid in installments to keep him under the DP threshold.
That makes sense. Given the rules then it would seem like Man City academy players would be a good way to get talented players while not taking large cap hits so I'm even more curious about why we did it in season 1 and then just stopped. Does MCFC not like it as a development route? Does NYCFC not like the level of players MCFC would be willing to loan or the large roster turnover it causes as they seem to only be short-term loans? Do the players not want to come? It was really strange that it didn't happen under PV given he had just coached the Man City academy team.

From a fan perspective, I'm sure we'd take some heat for being an MCFC farm team if we consistently had even a 1-2 MCFC players constantly rotating through but I have to say it's really neat seeing Angelino and Herrera (although not an academy player) play in the Champions League after watching them come up with NYCFC.
 

mgarbowski

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That makes sense. Given the rules then it would seem like Man City academy players would be a good way to get talented players while not taking large cap hits so I'm even more curious about why we did it in season 1 and then just stopped. Does MCFC not like it as a development route? Does NYCFC not like the level of players MCFC would be willing to loan or the large roster turnover it causes as they seem to only be short-term loans? Do the players not want to come? It was really strange that it didn't happen under PV given he had just coached the Man City academy team.
I'm less surprised by this in retrospect. In 2015 - Season 1 - we had Facey and Angelino (anyone else?). I think that's it.

Thing is, I think we can do and have done better than Facey within the MLS roster and cap rules. Angelino is better, but we only had him for a half season because of his and Man City's priorities, and both of those priorities will always take precedence over NYCFC for any such player. I don't think many coaches including PV want players rotating in for 1/2 seasons and as you note even one full season is borderline. I would not categorically rule out 1-year loans by any means - they can be very useful for all involved - but you only want so many.

Also, while this never quite reached a consensus opinion, I also know I'm not the only one who thought Angelino made it clear he thought he was better than this team and league and didn't really want to be here. That he was mostly right doesn't mean you want someone who has that (apparent) attitude hanging around. I can't really blame young guys who sign with Man City who think a stint with NYCFC is not their ideal assignment, but I don't want NYCFC to repeatedly deal with the Jamie Tart* growth path either.

* Yes, everything always comes back to Ted Lasso.
 
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Schwallacus

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I 'm less surprised by this in retrospect. In 2015 - Season 1 - we had Facey and Angelino (anyone else?). I think that's it.

Thing is, I think we can do and have done better than Facey within the MLS roster and cap rules. Angelino is better, but we only had him for a half season because of his and Man City's priorities, and both of those priorities will always take precedence over NYCFC for any such player. I don't think many coaches including PV want players rotating in for 1/2 seasons and as you note even one full season is borderline. I would not categorically rule out 1-year loans by any means - they can be very useful for all involved - but you only want so many.

Also, while this never quite reached a consensus opinion, I also know I'm not the only one who thought Angelino made it clear he thought he was better than this team and league and didn't really want to be here. That he was mostly right doesn't mean you want someone who has that (apparent) attitude hanging around. I can't really blame young guys who sign with Man City who think a stint with NYCFC is not their ideal assignment, but I don't want NYCFC to repeatedly deal with the Jamie Tart* growth path either.

* Yes, everything comes back to Ted Lasso.
Agree with this, but one time it would've been nice is this season given the lack of depth we have up front. I think it would've been a good to get one or two kids who probably aren't MCFC/PL level potential from them to help cover for at least the first part of this season. COVID threw a wrench into team building for this year, so a safer/lower risk bet would've been to go grab a kid or two who wants playing time or a fresh/different look for a few months.

Now that we have a youth system a reliance on the MCFC loaners presumably won't be something we look for/need. However, the combo of COVID (less funds, weird schedule, etc) and a lack of youth Strikers in our Academy makes me feel like this year is a weird one where we could've brought over an MCFC youth to help out. Moving forward though I think this season is more of an outlier rather than standard.
 

gbservis

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Also, while this never quite reached a consensus opinion, I also know I'm not the only one who thought Angelino made it clear he thought he was better than this team and league and didn't really want to be here. That he was mostly right doesn't mean you want someone who has that (apparent) attitude hanging around. I can't really blame young guys who sign with Man City who think a stint with NYCFC is not their ideal assignment, but I don't want NYCFC to repeatedly deal with the Jamie Tart* growth path either.

My memory is terrible and 2015 was a long time ago at this point but I felt like Angelino was just a young kid that seemed to be very excited to be playing alongside Villa and was only interested in attacking. He didn't really try all that hard on D but he's still mostly an attacking wing-back even at higher levels so I don't think that's an NYCFC specific thing. I do recall him nearly exclusively trying to pass to Villa in the final third so I could see people interpreting that has him looking down on his other teammates. Did he say or do something that made people feel like he didn't want to be here?

I agree it's less than ideal that Angelino type players often only come for 1/2 a season. I don't think we want a ton of it happening but given our major depth issues, it seems like a half-season loan of an Angelino type player could have helped us bridge the game to the signings coming this summer. The 2015 version of Angelino is a better LW than any player on our roster currently.
 

EganSoccerWords

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That makes sense. Given the rules then it would seem like Man City academy players would be a good way to get talented players while not taking large cap hits so I'm even more curious about why we did it in season 1 and then just stopped. Does MCFC not like it as a development route? Does NYCFC not like the level of players MCFC would be willing to loan or the large roster turnover it causes as they seem to only be short-term loans? Do the players not want to come? It was really strange that it didn't happen under PV given he had just coached the Man City academy team.

From a fan perspective, I'm sure we'd take some heat for being an MCFC farm team if we consistently had even a 1-2 MCFC players constantly rotating through but I have to say it's really neat seeing Angelino and Herrera (although not an academy player) play in the Champions League after watching them come up with NYCFC.
The quality of MLS has improved drastically. In 2015, Angelino and Shay Facey were stopgaps who got playing time because our year 1 roster was a hot piece of garbage. Shay Facey- who bottomed out as a League 2 player and is out of football now- wouldn't even be our 5th best CB on roster and Angelino while a good player now did not really break out until 2017 in the Eredivisie. I doubt the 18 year old version of Angelino would beat our Mata or Amundsen.

The other factor is that our academy was not is up and running. No way any one at NYCFC should be happy if some EDS Man City kid takes a spot that should be going to a homegrown both for economic and developmental reasons.
 

EganSoccerWords

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It truly amazes me how some of you guys know the stuff that you do with all the insane roster rules and chaotic transfers that take place. Just wanna say thank you to all of you who make it easier for us to understand the ins and outs of this league
NYCFCForums.com: Normalizing our psychopathic obsession with MLS roster rules since 2014.
 

mgarbowski

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This will be an even bigger problem if people we sign in early July cannot show up until late August or September and miss 10-12 games during a packed schedule segment.
It does appear this issue is not unique to NYCFC, but previously I know we identified some players who arrived in 2021 in the more reasonable and standard 1-2 week schedule. Did those teams bribe someone? Does it depend on which country they come from? Just random chance that some applications are processed and others linger? Did we offend someone in the state department or CBP?
 

LionNYC

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This will be an even bigger problem if people we sign in early July cannot show up until late August or September and miss 10-12 games during a packed schedule segment.
It does appear this issue is not unique to NYCFC, but previously I know we identified some players who arrived in 2021 in the more reasonable and standard 1-2 week schedule. Did those teams bribe someone? Does it depend on which country they come from? Just random chance that some applications are processed and others linger? Did we offend someone in the state department or CBP?
Lee has been preaching that because of the schedule being pushed back we'll be more active in the secondary window since there are more games to be played when secondary window transfers arrive. That won't be the case if there's visa holdup.
 
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Kjbert

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NYCFC: Wait until the summer. The market will be better then. Well bring in the attacking talent our team needs and our fans want.
also NYCFC: There is a 3 month wait for visas. Who could have foreseen this!
 
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moogoo

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per his instagram stories, hes chilling working out on the beach.
strange. why has the club been saying that he's been sitting with heber on the sidelines? or was that just a metaphor for his not playing? i kept thinking he was in the country, but just could not play cause of the visa.. but now that i think about it, he wouldn't even be allowed in the country without a visa... doh. brain fart.
 
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