Books. For the literati among us.

You're not crazy, putting the reader Ina state of extreme disorientation and confusion for the first third of the book or so is kind of how Gibson operates - and I think he takes it farther in the Peripheral than any of his other books. Which is why despite being one of his best books it is maybe not the best place to start if you haven't read him before. I actually put down Neuromancer after a few chapters as a teenager for the same reason.

Now that I think of it is a bit odd that:

A) I think the deliberate withholding of basic information about the environment from the reader is basically a cheap trick
B) Gibson relies pretty heavily on this device in all of his books but especially Neuromancer and the Peripheral
C) I think Neuromancer and the Peripheral are his best books

Maybe I should reconsider A?

It's not exactly a "cheap trick", the technical term for the device is Dramatic Irony. And it can be used by withholding information from the audience or giving information to the audience that is withheld from the character. A master of this technique, that we all are aware of us, is Hitchcock. He'd call it his ticking clock, because he would show a bomb under a table with a ticking clock, but the characters at the table would be unaware. This led to high anxiety for the audience, even though the characters themselves were calm. Sorry to use a film analogy to make my point in a book thread, but if you knew my background you'd understand why.

I will also agree with you. If a writer abuses the use of dramatic irony, it becomes repetitive to the educated and aware reader, losing it's affect. I have the same problem with Dan Brown books. But most readers are not paying the same attention as we are and dramatic irony keeps the average reader on the hook. It's how authors sell books, so I can't fault them, but abuse of the device does aslo affect my view of them as a writer.

Damn, I tried so hard to avoid this thread till now...
 
It's not exactly a "cheap trick", the technical term for the device is Dramatic Irony. And it can be used by withholding information from the audience or giving information to the audience that is withheld from the character. A master of this technique, that we all are aware of us, is Hitchcock. He'd call it his ticking clock, because he would show a bomb under a table with a ticking clock, but the characters at the table would be unaware. This led to high anxiety for the audience, even though the characters themselves were calm. Sorry to use a film analogy to make my point in a book thread, but if you knew my background you'd understand why.

I will also agree with you. If a writer abuses the use of dramatic irony, it becomes repetitive to the educated and aware reader, losing it's affect. I have the same problem with Dan Brown books. But most readers are not paying the same attention as we are and dramatic irony keeps the average reader on the hook. It's how authors sell books, so I can't fault them, but abuse of the device does aslo affect my view of them as a writer.

Damn, I tried so hard to avoid this thread till now...
I'd say the biggest problem with Dan Brown is that he stole his claim to fame story from the researched book: Holy Blood, Holy Grail - that was an academic/cited masterpiece - and turned it into an airplane/vacation genre read.

But yes, I understand you were focusing on his writing style & technique/skills and not the premise of his fiction. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: adam
It's not exactly a "cheap trick", the technical term for the device is Dramatic Irony. And it can be used by withholding information from the audience or giving information to the audience that is withheld from the character. A master of this technique, that we all are aware of us, is Hitchcock. He'd call it his ticking clock, because he would show a bomb under a table with a ticking clock, but the characters at the table would be unaware. This led to high anxiety for the audience, even though the characters themselves were calm. Sorry to use a film analogy to make my point in a book thread, but if you knew my background you'd understand why.

I will also agree with you. If a writer abuses the use of dramatic irony, it becomes repetitive to the educated and aware reader, losing it's affect. I have the same problem with Dan Brown books. But most readers are not paying the same attention as we are and dramatic irony keeps the average reader on the hook. It's how authors sell books, so I can't fault them, but abuse of the device does aslo affect my view of them as a writer.

Damn, I tried so hard to avoid this thread till now...
It's a skill issue. If it's done well, it's [serious author voice] Dramatic Irony. Done poorly, it's stupid, hacky bs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adam and Ulrich
It's not exactly a "cheap trick", the technical term for the device is Dramatic Irony. And it can be used by withholding information from the audience or giving information to the audience that is withheld from the character. A master of this technique, that we all are aware of us, is Hitchcock. He'd call it his ticking clock, because he would show a bomb under a table with a ticking clock, but the characters at the table would be unaware. This led to high anxiety for the audience, even though the characters themselves were calm. Sorry to use a film analogy to make my point in a book thread, but if you knew my background you'd understand why.

I will also agree with you. If a writer abuses the use of dramatic irony, it becomes repetitive to the educated and aware reader, losing it's affect. I have the same problem with Dan Brown books. But most readers are not paying the same attention as we are and dramatic irony keeps the average reader on the hook. It's how authors sell books, so I can't fault them, but abuse of the device does aslo affect my view of them as a writer.

Damn, I tried so hard to avoid this thread till now...
Welcome to the thread. *evil laughter*

My issue with the dramatic irony in The Peripheral, and I did read about 15-20% before giving up, was the excessive use. I'm fine not knowing something. Even not knowing lots of things. But when every part of the book seems designed to force you to not know anything, I give up. I don't want to work that hard. Reading, for me, is supposed to be fun.
 
Quick report on the last couple months.

Could of sworn someone on here recommended The Passage by Justin Cronin. Can't find the reference. I don't usually (or more specifically can't remember ever) read vampire books, but this was a great fun read. Didn't like book 2 (The Twelve) as much and probably won't read book 3. But The Passage was very enjoyable.

The Buried Giant by Kauo Ishiguro. Also thought that recommendation came from here, but can't find it. Anyway, highly enjoyable mix of Asian writing style with British Isles mythology.

Thanks to Goodfella Goodfella for recommending A Walk in the Woods. Excellent! Really loved it.
 
just finished 'All Over but the Shoutin' by Rick Bragg, Pulitzer Prize winner for the NYT. It's his own story and his journey from dirt poor Southern boy to acclaimed writer, enjoyable, self deprecating, humbling, funny and touching.
 
Homegoing, the debut novel by Yaa Gyasi (26-years-old), was fantastic! The story begins with two half-sisters that are separated (one sold into slavery in Ghana, the other married to a British slaver) and follows their family through the generations across 3 centuries - each main family member has a chapter that feels like a short story.
 
just finished 'All Over but the Shoutin' by Rick Bragg, Pulitzer Prize winner for the NYT. It's his own story and his journey from dirt poor Southern boy to acclaimed writer, enjoyable, self deprecating, humbling, funny and touching.

Homegoing, the debut novel by Yaa Gyasi (26-years-old), was fantastic! The story begins with two half-sisters that are separated (one sold into slavery in Ghana, the other married to a British slaver) and follows their family through the generations across 3 centuries - each main family member has a chapter that feels like a short story.

Have to pay my library fines so I can pick up both of these!

I went on an insane PD James binge in October - read about 10 of her books in two weeks. Good stuff. "A Taste for Death" is probably the best of the bunch but I enjoyed all of them. It is amusing to read online reviews - a lot of mystery fans seem to dislike her for loading her books down with a lot of extra characterization and description that they seem to view as dead weight. I do enjoy mysteries as a genre but I admire the author who pushes the boundaries to give the reader a little more, as she does.

I told myself I wouldn't mention any nonfiction here to avoid turning this into a politics thread by proxy but I do want to give a very high recommendation the Gulag Archipelago. I read it four years ago but have been thinking of it often lately.

It is admittedly far too long and extremely uneven but two things have stuck with me:

1) The value of the truth. In a society where the "truth" is dictated from above and can turn on a dime, there is great value in simply knowing the facts, even minutiae. Because without preserving real history, you are at the mercy of whatever false narrative is constructed by the powers that be. And there is value in other kinds of truth too - things like knowing how to build something properly, understanding physics, art, poetry, music - the kind of things that no dictator can erase.

2) The true power and meaning of irony. After 9/11 people were fond of saying that the age of irony was over. The unspoken assumption there is that irony is essentially corrosive and a rejection of any real values. I believed this as well, for a time. But Solzhenitsyn's work is deeply moral and at the same time laden with irony - irony as an expression - sometimes the only available expression - of moral outrage.

Can't recommend it highly enough. To read even one of the three volumes is probably sufficient. The most powerful part is the author's voice and the very existence of the testimony.
 
I told myself I wouldn't mention any nonfiction here to avoid turning this into a politics thread by proxy but I do want to give a very high recommendation the Gulag Archipelago. I read it four years ago but have been thinking of it often lately.
On this note, I'm almost done with Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It is a memoir of the journey of a woman from birth and early life in deep fundamentalist Muslim societies in Somalia and Saudi Arabia to her intellectual struggle and transformation as she experiences a Western nation and assimilates into its society and social norms.

I don't think I can say more or express opinions on the content without offending someone. Suffice it to say that she pulls no punches and her story is one of the bravest I've ever read.

Further I'd say this book has been one of the most fascinating page turners I've read in years. Can't recommend it highly enough.
 
I read the Elementary Particles and remember being disappointed by it.
Interesting. He's a divisive figure but I can't get enough of him. He's been called a xenophobe, a nihilist and a misogynist but I think he's more of a misanthrope. The way I understand it, sometimes people don't like what they see when they look in the mirror, so they destroy the mirror.

I'm not trying to project those opinions on you, mind :)

I think the Elementary Particles is his most decorated work but not necessarily the clearest articulation of his abiding thesis. Platform is good. The Map and the Territory is a little more palatable and is somewhat softened by its being anchored in art and art critique. I think he wrote it on a good day.

I also think that translations of titles can be a telling. In the States, Camus' "L'Etranger" was translated as "The Stranger". As a kid, I read it translated as "The Outsider". A world of difference.

I've seen "the elementary particles" translated as "atomized". Is our current state of freedom of choice, relative lack of tight bonds, assumed motivation of self-interest our base state ("elementary particles") or a perhaps-transient state induced by a destructive process ("atomized") triggered by social change that erupted in the 60s and 70s (there may be a more concise term for this period – referring to the Situationists and hippies etc.) and was extrapolated to the present day?

If the period between the 60s and present day has been the continuation of a broad trend, where is the next inflection point and what does the world look like during that transition? I think this is what he deals with in most of his books in one way or another.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mgarbowski
Just finished The Charm School, by Nelson Demille. It's a one-off cold-war spy thriller (unlike some of his other series books) that isn't in the Jason Borne/James Bond genre of over-the top bravado. It's not deep reading, but it is highly entertaining in a Geo-political framework.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FootyLovin
Just finished The Charm School, by Nelson Demille. It's a one-off cold-war spy thriller (unlike some of his other series books) that isn't in the Jason Borne/James Bond genre of over-the top bravado. It's not deep reading, but it is highly entertaining in a Geo-political framework.
Cool. Read his Gold Coast novels when I moved to LI. Entertaining. As you said - light reading but fun.
 
Great thread...3 I've read recently and really enjoyed:

Trinity- Leon Uris
The Gallic Wars- Julius Caesar
How We'll Live on Mars- Stephen Petranek TED Book (Can read this while on the shitter and very interesting)
 
Great thread...3 I've read recently and really enjoyed:

Trinity- Leon Uris
The Gallic Wars- Julius Caesar
How We'll Live on Mars- Stephen Petranek TED Book (Can read this while on the shitter and very interesting)

A guy named t-bagger telling us to read something on the shitter. Not really sure what to do with this information.
 
Side note: i saw 50 shades darker for a tripple date. 6/10 would reccomend. Its dumb as hell. The plot has ridiculous and unrralistic
 
Finishing up 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn'. It was laying around the house and I had nothing else to read. Not the easiest read given the dialect but some parts are laugh out loud funny.