SAFC Discussion

  • Welcome to NYCFC Forums 2.0. Since completing our upgrade I've had a number of people request to make a donation. If you'd like to Donate you may do so via this Paypal link below. Thank you all for the support and your willingness to cobtribute.
Consider becoming a 'donor' member to help support the forums! Click Here To Upgrade

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
I've been arguing that on here for years. They're not even a loss leader. Why teams invest in an Academy and B side is beyond me. Unless you can sell a DeAndre Yedlin every couple of years., it's not worth it.

League needs to get rid of the draft.
 

Fantazma

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 9, 2014
5,444
6,069
303
I've been arguing that on here for years. They're not even a loss leader. Why teams invest in an Academy and B side is beyond me. Unless you can sell a DeAndre Yedlin every couple of years., it's not worth it.

League needs to get rid of the draft.
no B teams and no draft? so where are kids going to play and be selected for first team?
 

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
no B teams and no draft? so where are kids going to play and be selected for first team?
I'm arguing for either or. Preferably Academy sides and solidarity payments to non Acadmey players if you pick them from another youth organization, but within a cap structure of sorts
 

Fantazma

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 9, 2014
5,444
6,069
303
I'm arguing for either or. Preferably Academy sides and solidarity payments to non Acadmey players if you pick them from another youth organization, but within a cap structure of sorts
i still prefer the B teams or at worst a hybrid thing where you give the players and the owners of the hybrid team take care of image and operations. the kids coming up need somewhere to play
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kjbert

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
i still prefer the B teams or at worst a hybrid thing where you give the players and the owners of the hybrid team take care of image and operations. the kids coming up need somewhere to play
I don't know how to find the meme of the guy who looks like a young Eddie Murphy pointing to his brain, but you don't need somewhere to play if you don't have kids coming up.

Financially, the Academies are a disaster for MLS, even with pay to play. I would love to know what Philly Union loses on an annual basis on their Academy, and they should be a shining example of what an MLS Academy should look like.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jagmandeeep

Fantazma

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 9, 2014
5,444
6,069
303
I don't know how to find the meme of the guy who looks like a young Eddie Murphy pointing to his brain, but you don't need somewhere to play if you don't have kids coming up.

Financially, the Academies are a disaster for MLS, even with pay to play. I would love to know what Philly Union loses on an annual basis on their Academy, and they should be a shining example of what an MLS Academy should look like.
oh it is an expensive thing to do and there will be losses ....but you dont give up on it....or else where are your kids going to get training ? AYSO? US youth soccer? the same pay to play that at times done even have the best coaching.
even worse, where the mentality is not really to develop but to make money or use the connections to get a scholarship and being a pro was never the goal.

there is still a "fear" i guess with MLS teams to play kids, FC dallas plays kids and RB do it as well. that needs to continue if you are going have academies, maybe you can sell a kid or two to europe and get some cash for it ( as well as giving to other youth teams if applicable but that seems to be a legal question from what i read).

i just feel is detrimental to the sport if you are going to close up shop and in your area, it has an MLS team but your kids wont be able to go up the system because its too expensive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kjbert

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
oh it is an expensive thing to do and there will be losses ....but you dont give up on it....or else where are your kids going to get training ? AYSO? US youth soccer? the same pay to play that at times done even have the best coaching.
even worse, where the mentality is not really to develop but to make money or use the connections to get a scholarship and being a pro was never the goal.

there is still a "fear" i guess with MLS teams to play kids, FC dallas plays kids and RB do it as well. that needs to continue if you are going have academies, maybe you can sell a kid or two to europe and get some cash for it ( as well as giving to other youth teams if applicable but that seems to be a legal question from what i read).

i just feel is detrimental to the sport if you are going to close up shop and in your area, it has an MLS team but your kids wont be able to go up the system because its too expensive.

Here is my counter argument. Why does an MLS club care if not having an Academy is detrimental to the sport? Their primary focus should be on winning, US Soccer be damned.

You asked, where are your kids going to get training - if you are NYCFC, the answer is let someone else in some other country do it, and augment with the draft.

Now, I don't personally believe any of that is in the best interest of NYCFC per se - but I wouldnt' fault any MLS Club that decided to build their franchise through international free transfers, the MLS Draft and free agency/waiver pick-ups.
 

Ulrich

Senior Member
Elite Donor
Donor
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 5, 2015
13,006
25,019
353
Here is my counter argument. Why does an MLS club care if not having an Academy is detrimental to the sport? Their primary focus should be on winning, US Soccer be damned.

You asked, where are your kids going to get training - if you are NYCFC, the answer is let someone else in some other country do it, and augment with the draft.

Now, I don't personally believe any of that is in the best interest of NYCFC per se - but I wouldnt' fault any MLS Club that decided to build their franchise through international free transfers, the MLS Draft and free agency/waiver pick-ups.
I'd fault that team, because there's roster relief by using HG players. discount that CAP loophole and you're shooting yourself in the foot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christopher Jee

Fantazma

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 9, 2014
5,444
6,069
303
Here is my counter argument. Why does an MLS club care if not having an Academy is detrimental to the sport? Their primary focus should be on winning, US Soccer be damned.

You asked, where are your kids going to get training - if you are NYCFC, the answer is let someone else in some other country do it, and augment with the draft.

Now, I don't personally believe any of that is in the best interest of NYCFC per se - but I wouldnt' fault any MLS Club that decided to build their franchise through international free transfers, the MLS Draft and free agency/waiver pick-ups.
but its not even US soccer we are talking about ( there are already MLS academy kids playing for other NT)...the teams themselves...teams need players they cant fill all the slots with foreigners and also you have "incentives" to have have HG with the salary help and slots etc. it may be "cheaper" risk to do that than pay someone 200K for one season and get little to nothing out of him, you have kids that have grown in your system and you have develop as best as you can and feel like they can contribute.

good luck getting someone to take players like shelton to go abroad to get training for development..and that is also for players like a tmac and other college kids. if they are good enough though they will leave and not come back and they wont be free.

as for other international free transfers....well its pretty much what alot of teams do now...and there are lots of misses there too. and free agency is not really free agency within the MLS and that wont change for a bit. i know cost is what drives many teams...but if you getting into this as a team you want to help your team have players the chance to play pro....some will be good many wont but thats the deal with these things.

but honestly with the whole Columbus situation then you may be right that development is not what team wants ( not even for their own team, maybe get a gem they can sell to europe etc) ...just a business that can give them a better ROI, lets not complain when there is no one to select for NT or even MLS clubs because they are not good enough. not saying having a system is end all be all ( coaching from what i read still has lots of ways to go) but you need to have something there to have kids going from youth team to pro even if they are not NT material
 

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
I'd fault that team, because there's roster relief by using HG players. discount that CAP loophole and you're shooting yourself in the foot.
There is $200k worth of roster relief. That's it.
 

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
but its not even US soccer we are talking about ( there are already MLS academy kids playing for other NT)...the teams themselves...teams need players they cant fill all the slots with foreigners and also you have "incentives" to have have HG with the salary help and slots etc. it may be "cheaper" risk to do that than pay someone 200K for one season and get little to nothing out of him, you have kids that have grown in your system and you have develop as best as you can and feel like they can contribute.

good luck getting someone to take players like shelton to go abroad to get training for development..and that is also for players like a tmac and other college kids. if they are good enough though they will leave and not come back and they wont be free.

as for other international free transfers....well its pretty much what alot of teams do now...and there are lots of misses there too. and free agency is not really free agency within the MLS and that wont change for a bit. i know cost is what drives many teams...but if you getting into this as a team you want to help your team have players the chance to play pro....some will be good many wont but thats the deal with these things.

but honestly with the whole Columbus situation then you may be right that development is not what team wants ( not even for their own team, maybe get a gem they can sell to europe etc) ...just a business that can give them a better ROI, lets not complain when there is no one to select for NT or even MLS clubs because they are not good enough. not saying having a system is end all be all ( coaching from what i read still has lots of ways to go) but you need to have something there to have kids going from youth team to pro even if they are not NT material

Until MLS can sell players on to Europe consistently for millions at a pop and those dollars go directly to the clubs, there is zero financial incentive to have an Academy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adam

Fantazma

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Nov 9, 2014
5,444
6,069
303
Until MLS can sell players on to Europe consistently for millions at a pop and those dollars go directly to the clubs, there is zero financial incentive to have an Academy.
i dont like that mentality.....because like 80 % of the world should not have them then (lots of dirt poor team still have a youth team no matter how crappy the facilities or coaching is)

this gives into the whole only if we make money should we do things....i do hope nycfc should keep doing acedemy and going for giving even poor kids a shot somewhere in the pipeline.
 
Last edited:

Kjbert

Senior Member
Seasoned Supporter
Apr 24, 2014
9,951
14,926
303
34
i dont like that mentality.....because like 80 % of the world should not have them then (lots of dirt poor team still have a youth team no matter how crappy the facilities or coaching is)

this gives into the whole only if we make money should we do things....i do hope nycfc should keep doing acedemy and going for giving even poor kids a shot somewhere in the pipeline.
Huddersfield is considering shutting down their Academy

The reason NYCFC should have an Academy is the same reason Barcelona has one. To raise little NYCFC cultish players. Play the City way starting at Age 10. Ingrain kids with the City Way mentality.

But why Columbus has one? No f'ing clue
 

Falastur

Senior Member
Staff member
Donor
Seasoned Supporter
Mar 20, 2014
3,388
4,578
353
32
Herts, UK
Huddersfield is considering shutting down their Academy

The reason NYCFC should have an Academy is the same reason Barcelona has one. To raise little NYCFC cultish players. Play the City way starting at Age 10. Ingrain kids with the City Way mentality.

But why Columbus has one? No f'ing clue
Huddersfield is considering shutting down their academy because a few years back, the FA made changes to the rules regarding how much money had to be paid to teams if you signed one of their u-17s from under their noses. It used to be that a tribunal would decide it solely on the basis of the player's potential and how long they'd been at their academy - top players might fetch anywhere from £500k to £2m in compensation. They shifted the system so now it instead is vastly weighted towards what grading your academy has. If you academy isn't top-graded, any other club can now steal your best youths for as little as £10,000. Consequently, the top five or so clubs are just pilfering talent left, right and centre.

The system was designed to force professional clubs to spend millions on turning all of their academies into world class facilities, but the FA didn't think it through and made the whole system financially inviable except if either run on a shoe-string or if your club is a Premier League regular. Generally the clubs shutting down their academies are the ones which might go out of business if they don't do so, although there's always the exception like Huddersfield. The system will have to be changed eventually but for now it would be a considerable loss of face for the FA to change it's mind, especially right at a time when there are calls for the board to resign over a racism scandal in the national women's team.
 
Last edited:

sbrylski

Senior Member
Apr 24, 2014
3,916
10,236
303
Huddersfield is considering shutting down their academy because a few years back, the FA made changes to the rules regarding how much money had to be paid to teams if you signed one of their u-17s from under their noses. It used to be that a tribunal would decide it solely on the basis of the player's potential and how long they'd been at their academy - top players might fetch anywhere from £500k to £2m in compensation. They shifted the system so now it instead is vastly weighted towards what grading your academy has. If you academy isn't top-graded, any other club can now steal your best youths for as little as £10,000. Consequently, the top five or so clubs are just pilfering talent left, right and centre.

The system was designed to force professional clubs to spend millions on turning all of their academies into world class facilities, but the FA didn't think it through and made the whole system financially inviable except if either run on a shoe-string or if your club is a Premier League regular. Generally the clubs shutting down their academies are the ones which might go out of business if they don't do so, although there's always the exception like Huddersfield. The system will have to be changed eventually but for now it would be a considerable loss of face for the FA to change it's mind, especially right at a time when there are calls for the board to resign over a racism scandal in the national women's team.
Holy hell what a terrible system. So either run a huge, expensive academy, or don't run one at all. There's no way that could backfire.
 

mgarbowski

Senior Member
Elite Donor
Donor
Seasoned Supporter
Jul 16, 2014
11,800
33,397
353
Queens, NY
mgarbowski.com
Huddersfield is considering shutting down their academy because a few years back, the FA made changes to the rules regarding how much money had to be paid to teams if you signed one of their u-17s from under their noses. It used to be that a tribunal would decide it solely on the basis of the player's potential and how long they'd been at their academy - top players might fetch anywhere from £500k to £2m in compensation. They shifted the system so now it instead is vastly weighted towards what grading your academy has. If you academy isn't top-graded, any other club can now steal your best youths for as little as £10,000. Consequently, the top five or so clubs are just pilfering talent left, right and centre.

The system was designed to force professional clubs to spend millions on turning all of their academies into world class facilities, but the FA didn't think it through and made the whole system financially inviable except if either run on a shoe-string or if your club is a Premier League regular. Generally the clubs shutting down their academies are the ones which might go out of business if they don't do so, although there's always the exception like Huddersfield. The system will have to be changed eventually but for now it would be a considerable loss of face for the FA to change it's mind, especially right at a time when there are calls for the board to resign over a racism scandal in the national women's team.
I love a good unexpected consequences story, especially when it also features the bureaucrat's love of measuring inputs and spending instead of outputs and quality.