And yet NYC has no issue attracting other massive corporations without subsidies.
Sorry, coupons to shoppers is a conflated comparison to tax subsidies to a corporation.
Stadium Discussion
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Sorry, coupons to shoppers is a conflated comparison to tax subsidies to a corporation.
http://www.qchron.com/editions/quee...cle_f87fac1b-f4de-5539-b94c-7f5d514cf50a.html
Hard to feel anything but sympathy for these people, except this guy:
“If we’re soccer fans, let’s build more parks for kids to play soccer,” said Hiram Monserrate, a disgraced ex-lawmaker who went to prison for stealing public money and was kicked out of the state Senate after slashing his then-girlfriend but remains a community advocate. “We can’t live in a soccer stadium.”
What a great piece of writing by the author, lol.
Hard to feel anything but sympathy for these people, except this guy:
“If we’re soccer fans, let’s build more parks for kids to play soccer,” said Hiram Monserrate, a disgraced ex-lawmaker who went to prison for stealing public money and was kicked out of the state Senate after slashing his then-girlfriend but remains a community advocate. “We can’t live in a soccer stadium.”
What a great piece of writing by the author, lol.
They failed to attract Amazon to LIC though. Let's see what happens there.
Also, genuinely curious as I don't know.... what other major corporations have located Greenfield developments in the outer-boroughs without incentives?
Amazon walked to save face. They’ve publicly said they’re still planning to increase their employee presence in all of the boroughs, they just aren’t going to build. They just don’t have a shiny new campus to brag about. I’m fine with that.
Why move the goalposts with the question regarding Greenfield? That has no impact on the fact that NYC is an epicenter for corporate HQ’s using new Brownfield development and existing vacant office space.
Because that was my understanding of the LIC development. They would invest heavily in a new campus, which would have been taxed heavily for generations to come, in exchange for incentives. What major corporations have done this in the outer-boroughs without incentives?
NYC created 11,000 net new jobs in the month of December alone without any funky tax breaks. There are currently 8.25 million people employed in the city of New York.
Amazon would have represented 0.3% of the overall employment in the city.
Andrew Ross Sorkin is a dope. Every job creates a trickle in effect due to consumer spending. But not every job comes with an incentive.
Amazon opening an office in LIC is meaningless to the city. Net net, it would cause a disruption to an already struggling public transit system, drive out affordable housing options and provide very little overall impact to the city of New York financially.
This is a big nothing burger. Cuomo wanted to say he brought amazon to New York. What he should be thinking about is how the 250,000 JPMorgan Chase and 100,000 Pfizer employees are going to commute to and from work every morning.
That seems like a very very small part of the overall economic development of the city, no?
It’s like asking us to tell you how red haired, bearded, left footed, Argentineans have scored a hat trick?
Bullshit, unless there were no TV or film jobs this month. Every TV and movie filmed in the city gets a special tax break just for that industry.
Even more generally, the odds that every job besides movie and TV created in the city is done without tax breaks approaches nil. The Amazon incentives were general, statutory, predate the Amazon deal, and available to any company meeting certain benchmarks. Amazon is not the first company to take advantage of them. They're just the first one 90% of the population paid attention to.
I would prefer a tax code that does not try to create special incentives, whether specific or general. If you want to have a movement to repeal the tax breaks Amazon took advantage of, I'm on board. But if you just want to piss on this deal and pretend every other business development in this city and state is clean, you're either lying or ignorant.
You’re saying that there was nothing unique about the amazon deal. That’s not true is it?
I am sympathetic to arguments that Amazon should not get a discount in order to build a headquarters in NY and even that state and local governments shouldn't give any discounts like this.
I am not sympathetic to the following arguments that I have seen in this case.
1. Now that we are not giving Amazon $3 billion, here is what we should spend it on.
- There is no pot of $3 billion. Amazon was being given discounts and breaks on taxes that would be paid. If the taxes aren't being paid, the $3 billion isn't there.
2. We never should have been promising them $3 billion when there are subways and schools that need the money.
- The total tax benefits would have been well in excess of $3 billion - perhaps several times more. That's where the money to pay for subways and schools would have been coming from.
These arguments are simply misleading. They set up false choices between a world where huge sums of money flow into infrastructure, housing and education vs. one where the money goes to Amazon. The real choice is one where Amazon gets a big break that other businesses don't in order to attract a huge project along with its jobs vs. not awarding those benefits and hope some portion of those jobs come anyway, whether from Amazon or not.
I am not sympathetic to the following arguments that I have seen in this case.
1. Now that we are not giving Amazon $3 billion, here is what we should spend it on.
- There is no pot of $3 billion. Amazon was being given discounts and breaks on taxes that would be paid. If the taxes aren't being paid, the $3 billion isn't there.
2. We never should have been promising them $3 billion when there are subways and schools that need the money.
- The total tax benefits would have been well in excess of $3 billion - perhaps several times more. That's where the money to pay for subways and schools would have been coming from.
These arguments are simply misleading. They set up false choices between a world where huge sums of money flow into infrastructure, housing and education vs. one where the money goes to Amazon. The real choice is one where Amazon gets a big break that other businesses don't in order to attract a huge project along with its jobs vs. not awarding those benefits and hope some portion of those jobs come anyway, whether from Amazon or not.
But those jobs are already coming. That’s the point. This amazon deal would have made a minuscule impact on the city.
I have also been interested in what 538 has published on this. Apparently, the deal was modestly popular overall in the city. It also received majority approval ratings through most boroughs and demographics. The exceptions? White people in Brooklyn and Manhattan did not like the deal.
Assuming these polls accurately reflect sentiment, I think it goes against conventional wisdom on the kinds of opposition that the project faced.
Assuming these polls accurately reflect sentiment, I think it goes against conventional wisdom on the kinds of opposition that the project faced.
I don’t know the answer to your question, and I don’t know how to find it since with no govt incentive there is likely no record to look for.
I do know that JetBlue got $8.8M in grants and tax exemptions between 2011-2014 to relocate to LIC. They’ve since created 1438 jobs (2014), which is 1/17th the number of employees of Amazon, but x17 their $8.8M is only $152.99M which is a fraction of the Amazon subsidy. And yet, JetBlue has a big presence at LaGuardia and is expanding their presence at JFK with either a new terminal to compliment the current one, or one twice the size to replace the existing. That expansion will increase their workforce considerably.
Not really sure what you mean, but I think we are devolving from the discussion of what this means for a potential stadium into politics generally, so I am going to step back.
I think this debate is largely meaningless because we are basically sticking to principles and gave differences, no big deal. As
K
Kjbert said, this really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things (although I do maintain that any west coast company looking to expand will take this into consideration and it will have at least some level of negative impact) and the City will continue being the economic powerhouse it is.
My big concern is a growing sentiment within our society. It amazes me that so many people have been directing so much vitriol towards companies like Amazon and others for hiring lots of Americans and paying them very well, which was half the argument against this development, or for the other half, which was negotiating a deal in exchange for their investment. All the vitriol should be directed at local officials over time for not keeping up with housing supply, not the companies investing in communities and paying "living wages" that so many people are clamoring for.
Sure, Amazon and other big companies have reasons to be criticized, but creating lots of high paying jobs and negotiating the best business deals they can are not among them.
I know I've stayed far from stadium discussion, but this really grinds my gears
My big concern is a growing sentiment within our society. It amazes me that so many people have been directing so much vitriol towards companies like Amazon and others for hiring lots of Americans and paying them very well, which was half the argument against this development, or for the other half, which was negotiating a deal in exchange for their investment. All the vitriol should be directed at local officials over time for not keeping up with housing supply, not the companies investing in communities and paying "living wages" that so many people are clamoring for.
Sure, Amazon and other big companies have reasons to be criticized, but creating lots of high paying jobs and negotiating the best business deals they can are not among them.
I know I've stayed far from stadium discussion, but this really grinds my gears
Really loved how de Blasio helped craft this deal then slams Amazon for walking away after democratic legislators and protesters disapproved of the deal.
Just like how de Blasio threw away the Bloomberg stadium plan. If Christine Quinn won the 2013 democratic nomination for mayor, we'd have a stadium by now.
Just like how de Blasio threw away the Bloomberg stadium plan. If Christine Quinn won the 2013 democratic nomination for mayor, we'd have a stadium by now.
Yeah, total bs from BdB. Can you really blame Amazon for walking after all the hostility they received, and almost certain delays they were facing?
Sure, Amazon should expect this for basically doing this all in secret, but the city appears to have backed out, or at least appeared likely to be backing out of its deal.
Over under on new Amazon employees in NYC by 2023 set at 15,000
