New Nycfc Stadium Site Study - Long Island City / Sunnyside Yards

Rafael Figueroa

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I had some spare time and started playing urban planner (the inner Robert Moses in me). It would be awesome if we could have a stadium close to the city, and I believe Sunnyside Yards in Long Island City would be a great site for a stadium.

Why?

A. The stadium would be walking distance to 5 Subway lines, and just minutes away from Manhattan:

7 minutes walking to the M/R - 36th St,
10 min walking to the 7 - 40th Street
12 minutes walking to the N,Q , - 39th Avenue

B. The city is very interested in developing the rail yard:

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/02/19/inside_sunnyside_yards_new_york_citys_next_megaproject.php
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/new-yorks-next-big-thing.html?_r=0

C. With so many public transportation alternatives in the vicinity - and on street parking, a smaller lot will be required. I believe that it can be done without even building a platform over the train tracks. See the attached picture... the building south of the proposed site (Major Chevrolet Services) essentially did the same thing... built in a lot in between the tracks and built a bridge to 43rd street.

D. To develop in this lot will be expensive, but not prohibitive. I think the idea is feasible, especially if the city gets involved (due to their interest in developing the rail yard) and the lot size is significantly reduced compared to a typical arena due to on street parking & very good public transportation access.

Here's how I did it: I was curious to see if an MLS stadium would fit in one of the empty areas in the rail yard. I copied the NYRB Arena (at the same scale as the google maps screen cap) and photoshopped it in the google maps.

So, without further ado, I present to you the results:

NYCFC LIC.png

You can see all the nearby subway stops: the 7 south, M,R east & N,Q further east. A pedestrian bridge can be built to 39th street and a vehicular one to 43rd street. If more space is required, some of the neighboring lots could be acquired - or maybe building a platform over the tracks in the middle could be a feasible option.

I'm not saying it can be done exactly like I'm showing it here. There are many factors that have to be taken in consideration, like, zoning for example. I was just curious to explore the posibility and share it with the community.
 
While I agree in principle that this is a good site, I do think you're greatly overestimating the utility of the available street parking.

The areas to the north and south of the site, across Northern Boulevard and Skillman Ave., respectively, are residential neighborhoods, so the street parking is largely taken up by the residents, especially on weekends and weekday evenings (i.e. match times). The Sunnyside site is definitely large enough to allow adequate an parking structure for the stadium, IMO.

That said, car traffic could be a problem, as the site is not terribly close to any highways. There's already congestion around the Queensboro bridge, which is one of the major access points nearby. Current routes to the LIE, GCP and BQE are circuitous and heavily trafficked already.

Anyway, it's a fabulous site for public transportation, but has some challenges for car traffic.
 
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You may have been playing urban planner. But you certainly weren't channelling Robert Moses, who disastrously disdained transit. For example, he single-handedly scuttled plans to put a rail line down the centre of the L.I.E.

Also, Moses cared not a bit about sports stadia. When the Dodgers wanted to build, entirely at their own expense, a new ballpark at the intersection of Atlantic and Fourth Avenues (the eventual site of the Nets' arena), all that the team needed Moses to do was to help aggregate the multiple plots into one. But Moses, who held several City and State posts and was essentially accountable to no one, refused to do a thing in this regard.

Having been soundly rebuffed by the only authority in the City which could help him, the Dodgers' owner Walter O'Malley reluctantly looked elsewhere. And he found that municipal officials in Los Angeles, in contrast to New York, were very interested to talk with him.

By the time anyone else in New York City government got wind of the Dodgers' desire to build in Brooklyn, the team had already entered into agreements with Los Angeles city officials about acquiring land in Chavez Ravine for the team to build its (entirely privately financed) stadium. All the City could do at that point was to offer a site in Flushing Meadow Park (the later location of Shea Stadium), which was understandably unimpressive to the Dodgers.

Popular mythology holds that O'Malley abandoned Brooklyn. In fact, O'Malley was driven out of Brooklyn by Moses. In the grand scheme of things, the loss of the Dodgers is a small part of Moses's toxic legacy. The biggest errors of this megalomaniacal madman include the destruction of neighbourhoods by the placement of highways, and the overall promotion of driving in a transit-rich city.

So, if you're imagining creating a sports stadium situated in a spot that is well-served by public transportation, then Moses's name is the last one which you'd want to invoke.

(P.S. - Long Island City is not "close to the city". It's in the city. The archaic use of the term "the city" to refer only to Manhattan really rankles this proud New Yorker from Queens.)
 
Sunnyside Yard has been discussed a number of times in the other thread, opinions going back and forth on it. I personally like it because I could walk there from my house, but in general the Flushing auto parts site has a lot better highway access (LIE, Grand Central, Van Wyck) whereas Sunnyside has basically only Northern Boulevard. Yes, it has three subway lines instead of just one but the Flushing stop is already set up for large crowds where the Sunnyside ones are not. There's also the LIRR at Flushing as well.

I like the Sunnyside site, but Flushing already has all the infrastructure pre-built for us.
 
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While I agree in principle that this is a good site, I do think you're greatly overestimating the utility of the available street parking.

The areas to the north and south of the site, across Northern Boulevard and Skillman Ave., respectively, are residential neighborhoods, so the street parking is largely taken up by the residents, especially on weekends and weekday evenings (i.e. match times). The Sunnyside site is definitely large enough to allow adequate an parking structure for the stadium, IMO.

That said, car traffic could be a problem, as the site is not terribly close to any highways. There's already congestion around the Queensboro bridge, which is one of the major access points nearby. Current routes to the LIE, GCP and BQE are circuitous and heavily trafficked already.

Anyway, it's a fabulous site for public transportation, but has some challenges for car traffic.
Then dont drive lol
 
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You may have been playing urban planner. But you certainly weren't channelling Robert Moses, who disastrously disdained transit. For example, he single-handedly scuttled plans to put a rail line down the centre of the L.I.E.

This is a very good post and essentially correct about Moses, but I do think the road that he chose to not build with a right of way for transit was the Van Wyck. That's something on my mind this morning because my wife just battled that traffic to pick up her dad at JFK. When Moses was building the road, his team told him it would never carry enough traffic for what would become JFK Airport. All he had to do was obtain a few extra feet of right-of-way for a future rail line, but he refused, and now there is no way out.

Anyone here who hasn't read the book on Moses - The Power Broker - I highly recommend it.
 
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Sunnyside Yard has been discussed a number of times in the other thread, opinions going back and forth on it. I personally like it because I could walk there from my house, but in general the Flushing auto parts site has a lot better highway access (LIE, Grand Central, Van Wyck) whereas Sunnyside has basically only Northern Boulevard. Yes, it has three subway lines instead of just one but the Flushing stop is already set up for large crowds where the Sunnyside ones are not. There's also the LIRR at Flushing as well.

I like the Sunnyside site, but Flushing already has all the infrastructure pre-built for us.

A reminder that the Flushing site that's been mentioned in the press is not where the auto parts stores are being torn down; it is in the parking lots next to Citi Field. We would build there and pay a fee that would be used to subsidize affordable housing on the Willets Point site.
 
You may have been playing urban planner. But you certainly weren't channelling Robert Moses, who disastrously disdained transit. For example, he single-handedly scuttled plans to put a rail line down the centre of the L.I.E.

Also, Moses cared not a bit about sports stadia. When the Dodgers wanted to build, entirely at their own expense, a new ballpark at the intersection of Atlantic and Fourth Avenues (the eventual site of the Nets' arena), all that the team needed Moses to do was to help aggregate the multiple plots into one. But Moses, who held several City and State posts and was essentially accountable to no one, refused to do a thing in this regard.

Having been soundly rebuffed by the only authority in the City which could help him, the Dodgers' owner Walter O'Malley reluctantly looked elsewhere. And he found that municipal officials in Los Angeles, in contrast to New York, were very interested to talk with him.

By the time anyone else in New York City government got wind of the Dodgers' desire to build in Brooklyn, the team had already entered into agreements with Los Angeles city officials about acquiring land in Chavez Ravine for the team to build its (entirely privately financed) stadium. All the City could do at that point was to offer a site in Flushing Meadow Park (the later location of Shea Stadium), which was understandably unimpressive to the Dodgers.

Popular mythology holds that O'Malley abandoned Brooklyn. In fact, O'Malley was driven out of Brooklyn by Moses. In the grand scheme of things, the loss of the Dodgers is a small part of Moses's toxic legacy. The biggest errors of this megalomaniacal madman include the destruction of neighbourhoods by the placement of highways, and the overall promotion of driving in a transit-rich city.

So, if you're imagining creating a sports stadium situated in a spot that is well-served by public transportation, then Moses's name is the last one which you'd want to invoke.

(P.S. - Long Island City is not "close to the city". It's in the city. The archaic use of the term "the city" to refer only to Manhattan really rankles this proud New Yorker from Queens.)
As a Queens resident, I meant no offense calling just Manhattan "the city". I just subconsciously keep doing that. Maybe because of all the peace and quiet on this side of the river.
 
Then dont drive lol
While in a way I completely agree I do have to say that's just the tiniest bit shortsighted. I don't own a car and take the subways everywhere but there are thousands of people who drive to matches. The easier it is to drive to and park at our stadium the more people will buy tickets and attend matches.

That's one of my issues with the Hudson Yards site, actually. Much as I love the location there's no parking and no highway access. That's semi OK for the Garden but for a stadium that's twice the size and used (usually) on the weekends you're going to need car access.
 
A reminder that the Flushing site that's been mentioned in the press is not where the auto parts stores are being torn down; it is in the parking lots next to Citi Field. We would build there and pay a fee that would be used to subsidize affordable housing on the Willets Point site.
Hey, just because you have "facts" at your disposal doesn't mean you can come on here and throw those "facts" in our faces, buster.
 
I much prefer to take public transport whenever I can, but it's not feasible for many locations if you are traveling from Westchester. Even Yankee Stadium doesn't work for me because they don't run direct trains to the Stadium for soccer like they do for Yankees games.
 
While I agree in principle that this is a good site, I do think you're greatly overestimating the utility of the available street parking.

The areas to the north and south of the site, across Northern Boulevard and Skillman Ave., respectively, are residential neighborhoods, so the street parking is largely taken up by the residents, especially on weekends and weekday evenings (i.e. match times). The Sunnyside site is definitely large enough to allow adequate an parking structure for the stadium, IMO.

That said, car traffic could be a problem, as the site is not terribly close to any highways. There's already congestion around the Queensboro bridge, which is one of the major access points nearby. Current routes to the LIE, GCP and BQE are circuitous and heavily trafficked already.

Anyway, it's a fabulous site for public transportation, but has some challenges for car traffic.

I agree with car traffic being the greatest challenge. Traffic in Queens Boulevard towards the bridge is a nightmare.

As for the on street parking, all areas around it are mainly residential, except to the southwest (west of 39th street, south of Skillman). It is mostly industrial, and parking is usually available on nights and weekends. There's actually many diagonal parking spots all along Skillman going west from 39th and into Queens Boulevard. But, like you said, a parking structure can also help and its feasible.
 
I had some spare time and started playing urban planner (the inner Robert Moses in me). It would be awesome if we could have a stadium close to the city, and I believe Sunnyside Yards in Long Island City would be a great site for a stadium.

Why?

A. The stadium would be walking distance to 5 Subway lines, and just minutes away from Manhattan:

7 minutes walking to the M/R - 36th St,
10 min walking to the 7 - 40th Street
12 minutes walking to the N,Q , - 39th Avenue

B. The city is very interested in developing the rail yard:

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/02/19/inside_sunnyside_yards_new_york_citys_next_megaproject.php
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/new-yorks-next-big-thing.html?_r=0

C. With so many public transportation alternatives in the vicinity - and on street parking, a smaller lot will be required. I believe that it can be done without even building a platform over the train tracks. See the attached picture... the building south of the proposed site (Major Chevrolet Services) essentially did the same thing... built in a lot in between the tracks and built a bridge to 43rd street.

D. To develop in this lot will be expensive, but not prohibitive. I think the idea is feasible, especially if the city gets involved (due to their interest in developing the rail yard) and the lot size is significantly reduced compared to a typical arena due to on street parking & very good public transportation access.

Here's how I did it: I was curious to see if an MLS stadium would fit in one of the empty areas in the rail yard. I copied the NJRB Arena (at the same scale as the google maps screen cap) and photoshopped it in the google maps.

So, without further ado, I present to you the results:

View attachment 3265

You can see all the nearby subway stops: the 7 south, M,R east & N,Q further east. A pedestrian bridge can be built to 39th street and a vehicular one to 43rd street. If more space is required, some of the neighboring lots could be acquired - or maybe building a platform over the tracks in the middle could be a feasible option.

I'm not saying it can be done exactly like I'm showing it here. There are many factors that have to be taken in consideration, like, zoning for example. I was just curious to explore the posibility and share it with the community.
I've been a fan of this site since the team was announced and mention it whenever we get a chance. However after speaking to my friends in City and State government it seems there's going to be a big issue in building anything, let alone a stadium there.

De Blasio wants to build there as he asked for a environmental impact study to be done a year or two ago. Cuomo doesn't like BDB and will likely stop anything from being done there unless he gets some concessions.

The only way I see this happen is if NYCFC teams up with the New York Jets to build a shared stadium with a retractable pitch the way Tottenham are doing for their groundshare with the NFL. (The Jets can legally move in 2025)

A retractable pitch makes it easy to swap out between real grass and turf. In terms of parking, because of the multitude of public transportation options M, R, 7, Q, E, G and LIRR (if you build it between Honeywell Street and Queens Boulevard instead of further back) you won't need as much parking.

There will be plenty of empty parking facilities used by companies that will be open on weekends if cars are a concern.

The beauty in getting the Jets involved is that a lot of those people who would be opposed to a soccer stadium might change their tune if they knew the NFL was going to play there as well. You also get extra lobbying power from the NFL and increased revenue which the city would jump on.

It's the ideal location for a stadium. With East Side Access set to be operational in 2023 you'd have even more access to the stadium for commuters taking the Metro North to Grand Central. Even less people would have to drive. So to sum up here is my ideal realistic timeline.

2017: Stadium construction begins
2019: Stadium construction finished.
2020: First season for NYCFC at home stadium
2021: MLS All Star game at NYCFC stadium.
2022: NFL has exhibition games (Pro Bowl?) at stadium
2023: East Side Access gives more commuters easy access.
2024: NFL hosts Super Bowl at NYCFC stadium.
2025: Jets play inaugural season at NYCFC stadium.
 
I've been a fan of this site since the team was announced and mention it whenever we get a chance. However after speaking to my friends in City and State government it seems there's going to be a big issue in building anything, let alone a stadium there.

De Blasio wants to build there as he asked for a environmental impact study to be done a year or two ago. Cuomo doesn't like BDB and will likely stop anything from being done there unless he gets some concessions.

The only way I see this happen is if NYCFC teams up with the New York Jets to build a shared stadium with a retractable pitch the way Tottenham are doing for their groundshare with the NFL. (The Jets can legally move in 2025)

A retractable pitch makes it easy to swap out between real grass and turf. In terms of parking, because of the multitude of public transportation options M, R, 7, Q, E, G and LIRR (if you build it between Honeywell Street and Queens Boulevard instead of further back) you won't need as much parking.

There will be plenty of empty parking facilities used by companies that will be open on weekends if cars are a concern.

The beauty in getting the Jets involved is that a lot of those people who would be opposed to a soccer stadium might change their tune if they knew the NFL was going to play there as well. You also get extra lobbying power from the NFL and increased revenue which the city would jump on.

It's the ideal location for a stadium. With East Side Access set to be operational in 2023 you'd have even more access to the stadium for commuters taking the Metro North to Grand Central. Even less people would have to drive. So to sum up here is my ideal realistic timeline.

2017: Stadium construction begins
2019: Stadium construction finished.
2020: First season for NYCFC at home stadium
2021: MLS All Star game at NYCFC stadium.
2022: NFL has exhibition games (Pro Bowl?) at stadium
2023: East Side Access gives more commuters easy access.
2024: NFL hosts Super Bowl at NYCFC stadium.
2025: Jets play inaugural season at NYCFC stadium.
You make some good points but my main issue with this is that there's no highway access to the site. It's just not going to be possible to get 70,000 people into the stadium if they can't get their 20,000 cars there.

The other issue is that we want a soccer specific stadium. And by "we" I mean everybody in the entire universe.
 
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You make some good points but my main issue with this is that there's no highway access to the site. It's just not going to be possible to get 70,000 people into the stadium if they can't get their 20,000 cars there.

The other issue is that we want a soccer specific stadium. And by "we" I mean everybody in the entire universe.
Queens Boulevard and Skillman Avenue is less than a mile away from the LIE off ramp.

It's right on Queens Bouelvard. If they build a stadium they'll build parking.

As for a SSS, if you look at what Tottenham is doing, you'll see you can have the NFL and professional soccer in the same stadium when it's done right.

http://m.tottenhamhotspur.com/new-scheme/gallery/
 
Queens Boulevard and Skillman Avenue is less than a mile away from the LIE off ramp.

It's right on Queens Bouelvard. If they build a stadium they'll build parking.

As for a SSS, if you look at what Tottenham is doing, you'll see you can have the NFL and professional soccer in the same stadium when it's done right.

http://m.tottenhamhotspur.com/new-scheme/gallery/
You can have the separate fields, yes. But the sightlines are miles different.

Additionally, in the current NFL culture, tailgating is a massive experience. Where are the Jets fans going to be doing this?
 
This is a very good post and essentially correct about Moses, but I do think the road that he chose to not build with a right of way for transit was the Van Wyck. That's something on my mind this morning because my wife just battled that traffic to pick up her dad at JFK. When Moses was building the road, his team told him it would never carry enough traffic for what would become JFK Airport. All he had to do was obtain a few extra feet of right-of-way for a future rail line, but he refused, and now there is no way out.

Anyone here who hasn't read the book on Moses - The Power Broker - I highly recommend it.

I believe it was both! I am certain about the L.I.E.; I just re-"read" The Power Broker last year (meaning that I listened to it on Audible) after having read it 20 years ago. But I think that you are right that there could have been transit on the Van Wyck as well, if not for Moses's intransigence.

And you are right that The Power Broker is essential reading (or listening). It is a thorough treatment of the most powerful person in the history of New York, someone who started out as an idealistic reformer, and who, while not "corrupt" in the traditional sense of graft and embezzlement, was most certainly corrupted morally by the powers of his many overlapping positions within the City and State governments, and by his unapologetically racist views. The book also delves deeply into other important New York characters, such as Governor Al Smith, Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, and several others.

If you are interested in knowing more about Moses's interaction with New York sports history, the book to read is The Dodgers Move West by Neil J. Sullivan (which, unlike the massive Power Broker, a is book of normal length).



As a Queens resident, I meant no offense calling just Manhattan "the city". I just subconsciously keep doing that. Maybe because of all the peace and quiet on this side of the river.

It's true that parts of Queens are quieter than most of Manhattan, and can sometimes appear almost suburban. I grew up in one such place out in eastern Queens -- by the time I was 17, I was eager to escape it! I have been in urbanised Woodhaven for nearly 30 years.

At any rate, I hope that you will fight the subconscious tendency to use the term "the city" to mean just Manhattan. It's a relic of an older time that is best left in the dustbin. The use of that term in that way is linked conceptually to anti-transit and other anti-urban sentiments; it is bound up with the notion that Queens is so different from Manhattan that typical characteristics of urban life (such as transit, and also density in general) are somehow not appropriate for Queens. It's language that fits the worldview of the "Archie Bunker" sector of our borough's population, which, unfortunately, is still substantial.

So that's why I bristle at any suggestion that we're somehow separate from "the city". In fact, we're the biggest part of the City, and also the most ethnically diverse part. Consolidation brought us into the City and brought civilisation to Queens; we need to emphasise and celebrate that.
 
You can have the separate fields, yes. But the sightlines are miles different.

Additionally, in the current NFL culture, tailgating is a massive experience. Where are the Jets fans going to be doing this?
I've never been to a NFL game but have been to many NCAA games, how different are the sight lines really?

Tailgating would be an issue, it would probably be cut down substantially because I can't see the neighbors being in favor of it too much. You'd think the local bars would want to soak in the business as well.