Tactics in Major League Soccer

[Keith Putnam]

Here's a thread for general tactical discussion within MLS, inspired by needing a relevant place to link this decent, if a little cursory, article examining the drift away from a 4-4-2 in recent years.

http://www.unusualefforts.com/mls-formations-and-tactics/

A sample:

"At the end of the 2015 MLS season, 11 of the 20 teams were using a 4-2-3-1, though its effectiveness depended on the skill level of the players. In both the 2014 and 2015 MLS Cups, the winning team fell back on a 4-4-2 (LA Galaxy and the Portland Timbers, respectively), but as the 2016 season begins to take shape, many teams are exploring other options. Of the top 12 teams at the end of April, four were consistently running a 4-4-2. Two of the eight others have used a 4-4-2 at least once this season, but most are using a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3."

 

[ktdNYCFC]

I don't have the time to read it now, but def will later. I believe Doyle wrote a piece on this as well, calling it the rise of the #10. He mentioned guys like Nagbe / Higuain / Kljestan / etc. When you play a 4-4-2 you can play 2 attacking mids, but you lose the CDM defensive cover. A 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 allows you to play an attacking mid and CDMs. Our shitty conundrum is that our "provider" Pirlo can neither run like a CAM nor defend like a CDM, so we're stuck with some makeshift pulley system that prevents us from playing that lone creative #10. I think Poku would probably excel there, if he could get his shit together.

 

[ktdNYCFC]

Alright I just made some time and read it. I think the best point they bring up is playing the formation that is best for the talent you have. This is where our 2 old DPs kind of hamstring us. I won't even mention Lampard's ideal position, because a box suite seems to be his locked-in role, but what is the ideal position for Pirlo? At this stage in his career I'm not sure there is one.

At the same time, we have PV trying to utilize the best features of different kinds of formations. He's using a 4-3-3 that is best suited for pacey counter attacks, but wants to play possession as you would in a 4-4-2. He's playing a high back line in a 4-3-3, that is also best used in a 4-4-2 to squeeze the midfield as the article explains.

I don't want to play a 4-4-2, but it seems all the "playstyles" that PV is going for coupled with what talent we have don't exactly mesh with a 4-3-3. I liked the WM at home, but I think he's hesitant about the lack of cover. I'd like to see Pirlo sit one game and play a WM with Bravo+Lopez at the midfield base and Mix+Poku at the top.

Edit: I wonder if Harrison has ever played centrally. I know he's usually out wide, but if he really has a lot of talent (we shall see), maybe PV could mold him into a real CAM.

 

[ktdNYCFC]

Or

 

[ktdNYCFC]

Sorry if I basically derailed this and sent it careening into the regular formation thread, but I was going off of the trends mentioned in the article

 

[sbrylski]

Alright I just made some time and read it. I think the best point they bring up is playing the formation that is best for the talent you have. This is where our 2 old DPs kind of hamstring us. I won't even mention Lampard's ideal position, because a box suite seems to be his locked-in role, but what is the ideal position for Pirlo? At this stage in his career I'm not sure there is one.

At the same time, we have PV trying to utilize the best features of different kinds of formations. He's using a 4-3-3 that is best suited for pacey counter attacks, but wants to play possession as you would in a 4-4-2. He's playing a high back line in a 4-3-3, that is also best used in a 4-4-2 to squeeze the midfield as the article explains.

I don't want to play a 4-4-2, but it seems all the "playstyles" that PV is going for coupled with what talent we have don't exactly mesh with a 4-3-3. I liked the WM at home, but I think he's hesitant about the lack of cover. I'd like to see Pirlo sit one game and play a WM with Bravo+Lopez at the midfield base and Mix+Poku at the top.

Edit: I wonder if Harrison has ever played centrally. I know he's usually out wide, but if he really has a lot of talent (we shall see), maybe PV could mold him into a real CAM.

Pirlo can still thrive, I believe, but in a very specific set of circumstances:

• He needs two other center mids that are workhorses with defensive skills that can track back when necessary.
• He also needs a four-man backline with fast centerbacks that can play a high line and offside trap.

These two things would completely neutralize the threat of counterattacks and therefore completely neutralize Pirlo's weaknesses. In addition, to thrive offensively, Pirlo needs:

• Room to operate on a large field.
• Technically and mentally skilled attackers to be in the right forward positions to utilize Pirlo's passes.

Unfortunately, we have almost none of the things I listed above.

If we cross these requirements with Vieira's preferred 4-3-3, I think something like a 4-5-1 V midfield is the appropriate shape - an attacking 6, two 8's, two wide attacking midfielders, and a target striker.

We have an attacking 6 (Pirlo), one 8 (Mix), relatively unskilled wide midfielders (Shelton?) and a supporting striker (Villa). And we play on the tiniest field in the league.

 

[George]

The problem is that our best players can't all play together in a 4-3-3 (based on PV's team selection):
Pirlo can't play with Poku and Mix
Poku can play with Mix but can't play with Pirlo
1 of Bravo or Mikey Lopez has to play as defensive cover
Lampard can't play

And with a 3-4-3:
Pirlo can play with Mix but can't play with Poku
1 of Bravo or Mikey Lopez has to play as defensive cover
Lampard can't play

So we end up having to have 1/2 of our most talented players on the bench whilst less talented players most notably our wingers end up in the starting lineup.
Why we have 2 DP CM's who both can't run as well as Poku who doesn't do much defending i really don't know. Surely when you are making a roster you would consider this sort of thing.

 

[ktdNYCFC]

Jesus Christ, this gives me flashbacks of analytical reasoning questions on the LSAT...

Analytical Reasoning

1. Buses 1, 2, and 3 make one trip each day, and they are the only ones that riders A, B, C, D, E, F, and G take to work.

Neither E nor G takes bus 1 on a day when B does.
G does not take bus 2 on a day when D does.
When A and F take the same bus, it is always bus 3.
C always takes bus 3.

Traveling together to work, B, C, and G could take which of the same buses on a given day?

(A) 1 only
(B) 2 only
(C) 3 only
(D) 2 and 3 only
(E) 1, 2, and 3

Pirlo can't play with Poku and Mix
Poku can play with Mix but can't play with Pirlo
1 of Bravo or Mikey Lopez has to play as defensive cover
Lampard can't play

And with a 3-4-3:
Pirlo can play with Mix but can't play with Poku
1 of Bravo or Mikey Lopez has to play as defensive cover
Lampard can't play

What formation can our coach play?

(a) 4-3-3
(b) 4-3-2-1
(c) 4-4-2
(d) 3-4-3
(e) none of the above

ANSWER: none of the above, our roster is fucked.

 

[sbrylski]

Jesus Christ, this gives me flashbacks of analytical reasoning questions on the LSAT...

Analytical Reasoning

1. Buses 1, 2, and 3 make one trip each day, and they are the only ones that riders A, B, C, D, E, F, and G take to work.

Neither E nor G takes bus 1 on a day when B does.
G does not take bus 2 on a day when D does.
When A and F take the same bus, it is always bus 3.
C always takes bus 3.

Traveling together to work, B, C, and G could take which of the same buses on a given day?

(A) 1 only
(B) 2 only
(C) 3 only
(D) 2 and 3 only
(E) 1, 2, and 3




What formation can our coach play?

(a) 4-3-3
(b) 4-3-2-1
(c) 4-4-2
(d) 3-4-3
(e) none of the above

ANSWER: none of the above, our roster is fucked.

Make sure you diagram! Those puzzles were actually fun, but the time pressure they put on you during that section of the test is insane. If you don't resolve it perfectly on your first try, you're guessing.

 

[ktdNYCFC]

Lol exactly. Anyone can answer that with enough time. Tricky part is you get what, 90 seconds per question? Thankfully I passed that nightmare a few years ago. Now I get to be a guinea pig for the UBE...

 

[mgarbowski]

I was thinking of the boat fox chicken grain puzzle.

 

[sbrylski]

Lol exactly. Anyone can answer that with enough time. Tricky part is you get what, 90 seconds per question? Thankfully I passed that nightmare a few years ago. Now I get to be a guinea pig for the UBE...

Lucky.

 

[adam]

Or

View attachment 4819

I think I called for this a couple weeks ago, except Pirlo in your Mix spot and Mix in your Harrison spot. Oh, AND LURCH IN THE SAUNDERS SPOT!!!!!!

 

[Keith Putnam]

Agreed that I don't want this thread to totally become a second version of the What Formation Should We Play thread which already exists, but there's definitely overlap.

I think in general this is a good place to discuss comparative and contrasting tactics between teams, or between games, etc. And not merely in terms of formation, but also looking at things like:

Use of backline height
Pressing and/or counterpressing
Playing out from the back vs. Route 1
whether teams are more successful at moving the ball or moving the opposition players around

etc.

But carry on!