Expansion Rumors Megathread

Those clubs syaing that fifa says pro/rel "part of the rules"

I seem to recall a time when MLS used countdown clocks and american penalties.

Pretty sure those were never in the FIFA/IFAB laws of the game.

No way MLS follows anything the CAS says.
 
Those clubs syaing that fifa says pro/rel "part of the rules"

I seem to recall a time when MLS used countdown clocks and american penalties.

Pretty sure those were never in the FIFA/IFAB laws of the game.

No way MLS follows anything the CAS says.

i think it doesnt have any authority over any local laws....if FIFA "forced" US SOCCER to implement pro/rel MLS owners and such can go to court i think to prevent it since franchise laws are pretty strong here in US. or the other option would be MLS be its own thing outside of US Soccer and US soccer can have div 1-4 but the main tv money and such will be with MLS since they have the contracts
 
Yep. Ridiculous behavior by both. I have followed the Stockade story with interest and liked what they were doing, but not anymore. Hard to see how this would even be enforceable in the U.S.

its actually interesting that you kind of the "ying yang" thing going on here for pro rel, at least to me. Silva is more the aggressive or the one starting shit just to stir the pot....and stockade was more of a "good guy" approach to actually talk and have discussion...at least to me. Both want the same thing....just how they go about it is what is different.
 
dont think its miami fc since them and stockade fc went to CAS to "sue" or file complaint against USSF or MLS for not implementing pro/rel in USA

Well, Miami FC and Beckham Miami FC are two completely different entities. Maybe I am misreading your post, but a team in Miami in MLS is completely irrelevant to anything Miami FC does.
 
Well, Miami FC and Beckham Miami FC are two completely different entities. Maybe I am misreading your post, but a team in Miami in MLS is completely irrelevant to anything Miami FC does.

it was rumored that miami fc owner was going to invest or something and be part owner of the beckham bid. and that a "big announcement" was going to happen on thursday.

turns out it was this lawsuit instead
 
Last edited:
it was rumored that miami fc owner was going to be invest or something and be part owner of the beckham bid. and that a "big announcement" was going to happen on thursday.

turns out this lawsuit instead

oohhh I missed that. thanks.
 
Those clubs syaing that fifa says pro/rel "part of the rules"

I seem to recall a time when MLS used countdown clocks and american penalties.

Pretty sure those were never in the FIFA/IFAB laws of the game.

No way MLS follows anything the CAS says.
i think it doesnt have any authority over any local laws....if FIFA "forced" US SOCCER to implement pro/rel MLS owners and such can go to court i think to prevent it since franchise laws are pretty strong here in US. or the other option would be MLS be its own thing outside of US Soccer and US soccer can have div 1-4 but the main tv money and such will be with MLS since they have the contracts

From what i've gathered, FIFA does have a rule suggesting pro/rel between divisions. However, it has a later byline which allows the local federation to determine how to manage it's divisional structure. So, basically FIFA laws do suggest pro/rel, but give the federations the authority to implement their own structure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NYCFC_JD
From what i've gathered, FIFA does have a rule suggesting pro/rel between divisions. However, it has a later byline which allows the local federation to determine how to manage it's divisional structure. So, basically FIFA laws do suggest pro/rel, but give the federations the authority to implement their own structure.

According to this guy, the intent of the provision has nothing to do with the US (or Australia) although the plain language of the article makes it sound like it applies:

"Specifically, in 2008, shortly after the precursor to Article 9 was implemented, FIFA’s Executive Committee issued a public statement clarifying its rationale for the rule. In the statement, the Committee explained that “[r]esults on the pitch decide whether a club goes up or down a level in every championship around the world except in the United States and Australia, where there are ‘closed’ leagues. Recently it has been possible to achieve promotion artificially by buying or moving a club. FIFA wishes to make sure that this cannot happen again.”

https://medium.com/@terryblaw/does-u-s-soccers-league-set-up-violate-fifa-rules-ceec15f54244
 
According to this guy, the intent of the provision has nothing to do with the US (or Australia) although the plain language of the article makes it sound like it applies:

"Specifically, in 2008, shortly after the precursor to Article 9 was implemented, FIFA’s Executive Committee issued a public statement clarifying its rationale for the rule. In the statement, the Committee explained that “[r]esults on the pitch decide whether a club goes up or down a level in every championship around the world except in the United States and Australia, where there are ‘closed’ leagues. Recently it has been possible to achieve promotion artificially by buying or moving a club. FIFA wishes to make sure that this cannot happen again.”

https://medium.com/@terryblaw/does-u-s-soccers-league-set-up-violate-fifa-rules-ceec15f54244

According to a podcast I recently listened to (Total Soccer Show - great show if you've never tried it before), this rule was put in place after / because of an extremely specific situation (in Spain maybe?) in which a long-time owner of Club A (location X, 4th tier) then purchased Club B (location Y, 2nd or 1st tier)... and after owning both teams, instead of working to get Club A promoted, the owner essentially just demolished Club B, and replaced it with Club A (branding, players, etc.), thereby "promoting" Club A without the hassle of actually needing to win anything in the lower tiers to actually get promoted.

This is interesting to me in 2 ways: 1) if there this particular FIFA provision was instituted to prevent an extremely specific scenario then, on the surface, FIFA will probably not intend to apply it to the US in any fashion ... but 2) the purchasing of a club in order to move another club or a new club to a top tier does sound a lot like how MLS expansion is happening.

All that being said, I think this arbitration attempt by Miami FC and Kingston Stockage will go nowhere. First off, the situation in the US is extremely different, because the soccer structure and pyramid are still in its infancy (relative to other soccer nations) and building. Second, and more importantly, FIFA knows damn well that a massive, massive chunk of its revenue comes from the US (viewership, sponsorships, etc.), and there's no chance in hell FIFA pisses off all of the people in the US that have the money, power, influence, etc. (see: USSF and MLS owners) by doing anything about this, at least in the short-term.

IMHO, instituting pro/rel right now would set MLS and soccer in this country back 20 years. Do I think there's a place for it in the long term (15-30 years from now)? Maybe. But I think we need to get MLS fully expanded and get USL fully expanded first (what fully expanded means is anyones guess though). Realistically, I could see NASL dying, USL hitting 40 teams, MLS hitting 32+ teams, and then having something like MLS 1, MLS 2, USL 1, USL 2, NPSL?, and so on... with pro/rel of 1 team each season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoupInNYC
I wonder where these brave representatives of football for all were when the MLS was much less financially viable. To me this is nothing other than businessmen looking at an increasingly successful operation and seeing an opportunity to leverage FIFA's statutes to force their way into a piece of the revenue.
I think the likeliest outcome is that FIFA codifies our exemption to Pro/Rel based on the sporting history of this country. This would serve two purposes, protect the MLS from more of these legal challenges, protect FIFA from other leagues that would love to be closed if the "requirement" to have Pro/Rel was loosened. Closed leagues equal stable ownership, stable finances, stable rosters, stable fan support, etc.
Long-term I think MLS grows and the lower leagues continue to flounder until we get what exists for the other American pro sports. The NBA's minor league is owned by the NBA, the NHL's minor league is owned/affiliated with the NHL, Minor League Baseball is owned/affiliated with MLB. I think there will come a point where it makes sense for MLS to buy up the lower leagues (either by transaction or offering a league membership at specific tiers with revenue sharing) and create a competition setup for them akin to the Premier League/Football League setup in England. Maybe they do pro/rel with that some day, but there is nowhere even close to the national interest for it at this point. If Stockade FC went D4 to D3 how many more fans does that really mean in Kingston and for a road match in Southern California?
 
Second, and more importantly, FIFA knows damn well that a massive, massive chunk of its revenue comes from the US (viewership, sponsorships, etc.), and there's no chance in hell FIFA pisses off all of the people in the US that have the money, power, influence, etc. (see: USSF and MLS owners) by doing anything about this, at least in the short-term.
Is there any evidence to back this up? I just don't see how FIFA would care about what MLS thinks about anything. Fox bought FIFA rights through 2022 (2026?) for around $500 million. Sure, that's a lot, but compare that to the BBC who bought the rights to the 2014 World Cup for 220 million pounds (for a country that has 1/6 the population of the US).

It's a big world out there and the US is towards the bottom as far as soccer goes. To say we rule the soccer world from behind the curtain is going to take some evidence if you want to convince us, and even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any connection to MLS. I'd say the world's now at least heard of MLS but I'm not sure anybody outside of North America pays any attention to it yet. (It's sort of like the NFL. Huge here, for now, but outside the country nobody cares.)

Sources:
Fox World Cup rights
BBC World Cup rights
 
It's a big world out there and the US is towards the bottom as far as soccer goes. To say we rule the soccer world from behind the curtain is going to take some evidence if you want to convince us, and even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any connection to MLS. I'd say the world's now at least heard of MLS but I'm not sure anybody outside of North America pays any attention to it yet. (It's sort of like the NFL. Huge here, for now, but outside the country nobody cares.)

I don't agree that a massive chunk of FIFA revenue comes from MLS, but the US is a huge growth opportunity for FIFA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

MLB, NFL, and NBA are bigger than any other league in the world. Even the NHL is ahead of every other sports league that isn't the Prem. MLS is 14th on this list, in the world. We are a big deal and a huge opportunity for FIFA. MLS can definitely grow and take revenue away from the Big 4 sports here. And by playing an opposite schedule to the rest of the world, we provide something to watch when they're in offseason or someone's team is out of contention. So to the point that we are a big deal for FIFA, I think that's true, they see the potential here.

Also loads of people outside the US care about the NFL, especially in the UK. And there are international MLS fans too. A lot of them even enjoy that the league is closed and allows anyone to be competitive and isn't stratified like most open leagues. They also don't have to worry about their team getting relegated and becoming challenging to follow. As a Hull City supporter, it was a real surprise to find out just how many fans over there have an NFL, some even an MLB team.
 
i think it doesnt have any authority over any local laws....if FIFA "forced" US SOCCER to implement pro/rel MLS owners and such can go to court i think to prevent it since franchise laws are pretty strong here in US. or the other option would be MLS be its own thing outside of US Soccer and US soccer can have div 1-4 but the main tv money and such will be with MLS since they have the contracts
MLS non-sanctioned by US Soccer would be a disaster especially in terms of internationals not wanting to transfer here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adam
Is there any evidence to back this up? I just don't see how FIFA would care about what MLS thinks about anything. Fox bought FIFA rights through 2022 (2026?) for around $500 million. Sure, that's a lot, but compare that to the BBC who bought the rights to the 2014 World Cup for 220 million pounds (for a country that has 1/6 the population of the US).

It's a big world out there and the US is towards the bottom as far as soccer goes. To say we rule the soccer world from behind the curtain is going to take some evidence if you want to convince us, and even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any connection to MLS. I'd say the world's now at least heard of MLS but I'm not sure anybody outside of North America pays any attention to it yet. (It's sort of like the NFL. Huge here, for now, but outside the country nobody cares.)

Sources:
Fox World Cup rights
BBC World Cup rights
Fox got TV rights so cheap because FIFA wanted to dodge a lawsuit. Fox was angry about the selection of Qatar for 2022 and a winter conflict with the NFL season. Gave Fox an extension at the same rate through 2026 in exchange for not suing.
 
Is there any evidence to back this up? I just don't see how FIFA would care about what MLS thinks about anything. Fox bought FIFA rights through 2022 (2026?) for around $500 million. Sure, that's a lot, but compare that to the BBC who bought the rights to the 2014 World Cup for 220 million pounds (for a country that has 1/6 the population of the US).

It's a big world out there and the US is towards the bottom as far as soccer goes. To say we rule the soccer world from behind the curtain is going to take some evidence if you want to convince us, and even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any connection to MLS. I'd say the world's now at least heard of MLS but I'm not sure anybody outside of North America pays any attention to it yet. (It's sort of like the NFL. Huge here, for now, but outside the country nobody cares.)

Sources:
Fox World Cup rights
BBC World Cup rights
LeeNYCFC's post was perhaps more to the point than mine. But as far as evidence goes... I guess the podcast I cited? I dono man, I'm just here for a chat, not writing a damn term paper haha
 
Maybe for 27-28. 25-26 are for sure things which is right now only Nashville, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, Sacramento, Detroit.

To nitpick, Detroit isn't a sure thing. I'm sure you know that and just included them for their potential to be ready. You also left off Phoenix, which appears to actually be a sure thing.

I speculate Detroit and even Nashville won't actually be ready by December. Can never trust a timeline when the government is involved. Same for Raleigh and San Antonio. Indy, Charlotte, and St. Louis seem dead.

So I'll stick by my most recent picks and guess that Sacramento will be chosen over Phoenix in the West and Cincinnati will be chosen over Tampa in the East.

For 27 and 28, I think San Diego and Detroit would be the preferred bids. Phoenix would get the West spot if San Diego fails, and Nashville probably gets the East spot if Detroit fails. Raleigh and Tampa are definitely still in play for #28 in the East, but I'm not sure the owners actually like Bill Peterson, or if he has the finances.