Promotion & Relegation

[Keith Putnam]

Klinsmann is always super bummed out about how, in his view, the differences between the American system and every other system means the USMNT will never be as good as the best Euro and South American national teams. So it's no surprise he's come out again in favor of pro/rel for the MLS.

I like pro/rel as much as the next guy *in other leagues* but I've also come around to the position that the US simply doesn't have the soccer infrastructure to support it (as in, we'd need the hundreds of professional teams that many of the major soccer-playing nations have), the fan patience to deal with it (the oft-repeated question of "what happens to the new soccer fan whose team gets relegated in the fan's first season), the fact that expansion teams don't start at the bottom and fight their way up, and the fact that we don't have a century of soccer history in which supporters have seen their teams go up and down multiple times over generations.

Basically I think we can come back to this issue a few generations down the line, when the number of quality professional teams has exploded, the number of lower tier leagues has increased and the tier system has solidified, and the tradition of following, say, NYCFC has been passed from grandparent to parent to child so the next generation would follow them even into the USL and below.

 

[sbrylski]

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-s...en-klinsmann-favors-relegation-system-for-mls

Klinsmann would like a relegation system for MLS, stating that it would increase the competitiveness of the league. I'm pretty new to MLS and soccer in general so just wanted to get some other peoples thoughts on the subject.

America is big. Professional sports leagues in this country have 30+ teams. The MLS has 20 right now. The NASL has maybe three or four markets that could succeed in a top tier league. The USL, maybe two. We need viable promotion candidates that are locked out of the top league before we can start introducing a mechanism for them to climb. And that might never happen due to American's general lack of support for second tier teams.

I don't think we will ever see pro/reg in the US. Our leagues are binary - they're either premier leagues, or they're developmental leagues. One of American sports' fandom's core principals is "there's always next year." So what might happen is MLS expansion to 40+ with regional divisions, in order to allow more markets to compete, but every season each team needs to start on an even playing field again.

The only place that "there's always next year" doesn't take on importance is in college sports. Oddly, I think a pro-reg could actually work better in that setting, but there are a lot of different reasons why that would never happen.

 

[Gazza_55]

Relegation would be amazing. Juergen is right. Owners will fight it tooth and nail. Too much perceived risk. So no relegation for MLS anytime soon.

Nevermind the owners the players would NEVER let it happen. 99% of the contracts in MLS, NASL and USL are not guaranteed.

 

[joe]

I can't find it now, and maybe it was brought up previously in this thread, but there was an interesting proposal going around for a sort of transitional pro/rel system that I thought could work.

The numbers are going to be a bit approximate since I'm doing this from memory but roughly

• 40 team "super league"
• 30 team top division
• 10 team lower division
• Games are mostly within division, with limited crossover
• 6-8 teams promoted/relegated each season

I wish I could find the article at it was a lot more comprehensive/convincing, but a main point was that the increased turnover would limit risk for existing MLS owners (who have paid higher franchise fees) by making it less likely they'd get "stuck" in the lower division.

 

[Z4CH3B99]

I was just about to post a comment about Klinsman and the Pro/Relegation system of MLS when I saw that everyone else on this forum had already done so. lol

I have to agree with Klinsman on this one.
The Promotion and Relegation system makes MLS more competitive as a whole.
It would force perennial cellar dwellers like Chicago Fire or Colorado Rapids to actually put an effort into fielding commutative teams in order to prevent them from being relegated.
It would also make the lower leagues more important and therefore more lucrative.

 

[Z4CH3B99]

I can't find it now, and maybe it was brought up previously in this thread, but there was an interesting proposal going around for a sort of transitional pro/rel system that I thought could work.

The numbers are going to be a bit approximate since I'm doing this from memory but roughly

• 40 team "super league"
• 30 team top division
• 10 team lower division
• Games are mostly within division, with limited crossover
• 6-8 teams promoted/relegated each season

I wish I could find the article at it was a lot more comprehensive/convincing, but a main point was that the increased turnover would limit risk for existing MLS owners (who have paid higher franchise fees) by making it less likely they'd get "stuck" in the lower division.

That's probably the closest we are ever going to get to a promotion and relegation system in MLS. However, it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

 

[FootyLovin]

I can't find it now, and maybe it was brought up previously in this thread, but there was an interesting proposal going around for a sort of transitional pro/rel system that I thought could work.

The numbers are going to be a bit approximate since I'm doing this from memory but roughly

• 40 team "super league"
• 30 team top division
• 10 team lower division
• Games are mostly within division, with limited crossover
• 6-8 teams promoted/relegated each season

I wish I could find the article at it was a lot more comprehensive/convincing, but a main point was that the increased turnover would limit risk for existing MLS owners (who have paid higher franchise fees) by making it less likely they'd get "stuck" in the lower division.

I like this a lot. Also at 40 teams what are the chances of a split to two separate premier leagues that each qualify separately for CCL?

 

[Z4CH3B99]

I like this a lot. Also at 40 teams what are the chances of a split to two separate premier leagues that each qualify separately for CCL?

If we split them for CCL the leagues will have to be more balanced team wise. 30 and 10 won't exactly work.

 

[sbrylski]

I can't find it now, and maybe it was brought up previously in this thread, but there was an interesting proposal going around for a sort of transitional pro/rel system that I thought could work.

The numbers are going to be a bit approximate since I'm doing this from memory but roughly

• 40 team "super league"
• 30 team top division
• 10 team lower division
• Games are mostly within division, with limited crossover
• 6-8 teams promoted/relegated each season

I wish I could find the article at it was a lot more comprehensive/convincing, but a main point was that the increased turnover would limit risk for existing MLS owners (who have paid higher franchise fees) by making it less likely they'd get "stuck" in the lower division.

But, why?

You're basically setting up a "jail" for poorly performing teams. What's the benefit? Motivate teams to win or face the loss of top tier TV revenues? It's the equivalent of handing out fines to bad teams.

Either the whole pyramid needs to be pro/reg, or none of it.

 

[Z4CH3B99]

But, why?

You're basically setting up a "jail" for poorly performing teams. What's the benefit? Motivate teams to win or face the loss of top tier TV revenues? It's the equivalent of handing out fines to bad teams.

Either the whole pyramid needs to be pro/reg, or none of it.

It's a compromise that owners might possibly accept on a good day if there's a double rainbow and a bunch of singing forest animals.

 

[sbrylski]

I like this a lot. Also at 40 teams what are the chances of a split to two separate premier leagues that each qualify separately for CCL?

Also, why? I like coming up with different league structure ideas, but they have to be with a purpose.

I want to see conferences stay between 8 and 12 teams each, I think it's a good balance between regional rivalry and conference depth.

As the overall size of the league rises, conferences become more insular as they see fewer non-conference opponents each year.

Medium sized conferences allows 3 and 4 conference setups that allow more creative playoff formats too, such as a group stage with each group make up of one team from each conference to allow conferences to square off head-to-head in the first round of the playoffs.

 

[sbrylski]

It's a compromise that owners might possibly accept on a good day if there's a double rainbow and a bunch of singing forest animals.

But why would you even support pro/reg at that point? The whole advantage of pro-reg is that any team can rise from the bottom all the way to the top. It's a way to take a whole universe of teams and group them into manageable leagues of comparable talent. In a split MLS, it's just MLS teams being punished for sucking, which just hurts the teams and the fans. I don't see the benefit.

 

[Z4CH3B99]

But why would you even support pro/reg at that point? The whole advantage of pro-reg is that any team can rise from the bottom all the way to the top. It's a way to take a whole universe of teams and group them into manageable leagues of comparable talent. In a split MLS, it's just MLS teams being punished for sucking, which just hurts the teams and the fans. I don't see the benefit.

It's a step in the right direction that could potentially lead to a real Promotion and Relegation system.

 

[BlueWarrior]

relegation and promotion would not work. Why would people like Beckham and flavio invest huge money into the league where they could be sent down a division after one season. Maybe in 20-30 years. but right now, u can't do that in a still growing league.

I love Klinsy, but he is wrong on this.

 

[joe]

Found it! http://fusion.net/story/93512/promotion-relegation-mls/

I inflated the numbers a little bit in my memory, but hopefully this answers some of the other questions...

 

[sbrylski]

It's a step in the right direction that could potentially lead to a real Promotion and Relegation system.

Eh, but this compromise benefits nobody, so I don't see why the league or the players would ever agree to it. There is zero benefit.

The reason to have pro/reg isn't to punish bad teams, it's to reward good teams. So until there's a number of thriving teams that are locked out of the structure of MLS, there's no reason for it. And the best avenue to achieving pro/reg would probably be for those locked out teams to buy-in to MLS.

For example, let's say MLS stops at 28 teams because they run out of ownership groups that are willing to pay their rising expansion fee, which has hit a silly $500 million. This creates an underclass of quality teams, with sound ownership groups, and good infrastructure, in the 10-20 major markets left out of MLS. This group of teams holds a vote, and decides to pool their league resources to buy into MLS at a reduced per-team price, on the condition that they have to play their way in. So MLS stays at 28 (two conferences of 14), and this second tier league buys the rights to promote a few teams a year.

Eh, even as I type that, it just doesn't seem like the route any of the teams or leagues would want to go.

In the end, our structure will be more horizontal than vertical (MLS conferences v. MLS levels). Our cities are too spread out in America, and there are economic and cultural reasons preventing vertical organization.

 

[FootyLovin]

Found it! http://fusion.net/story/93512/promotion-relegation-mls/

I inflated the numbers a little bit in my memory, but hopefully this answers some of the other questions...

God damn I like that.

The reason to have pro/reg isn't to punish bad teams, it's to reward good teams.

The point isn't to reward or punish good or bad teams. The point is to create an exceptionally exciting fan experience. That rewards good and bad teams and their crazy ass fans too. Let's do this shit!!

 

[MagnusPax]

Great points here. Exactly what I was going to say but you all did it better.

There is zero reason MLS owners ever ever approve pro/rel.

 

[Keith Putnam]

For a little bit of perspective, the top eight leagues of English (men's) professional football interconnected by pro/rel comprise 368 clubs. 368 teams in a geographical area covering 58,398.1 square miles for a professional team density of 6 teams per thousand square miles.

A thousand square miles is roughly half the size of Delaware, so imagine Delaware having twelve professional soccer teams.

Currently in North America there are 55 (men's) professional soccer clubs, MLS, NASL and USL inclusive. 55 teams in a geographical area covering 3,537,500 square miles (US only; leaving out Canada) for a professional team density of about .015 per thousand square miles.

This is all to say that we just don't have enough teams to make pro/rel feasible. Get back to me when Delaware has twelve professional soccer teams.

 

[Calmness Personified]

For a little bit of perspective, the top eight leagues of English (men's) professional football interconnected by pro/rel comprise 368 clubs. 368 teams in a geographical area covering 58,398.1 square miles for a professional team density of 6 teams per thousand square miles.

A thousand square miles is roughly half the size of Delaware, so imagine Delaware having twelve professional soccer teams.

Currently in North America there are 55 (men's) professional soccer clubs, MLS, NASL and USL inclusive. 55 teams in a geographical area covering 3,537,500 square miles (US only; leaving out Canada) for a professional team density of about .015 per thousand square miles.

This is all to say that we just don't have enough teams to make pro/rel feasible. Get back to me when Delaware has twelve professional soccer teams.

The majority of those 368 teams will be semi-pro, in England only the top 4 leagues are fully professional. Semi professional in most cases is paying the players for traveling costs and other minor expenses. Not that I think Pro/Rel is feasible in the U.S. but it works fine in France, France is around 5 times larger than the UK and only it's top 3 leagues are professional consisting of 60 teams, you don't need anywhere near as many teams per square mile as England to make pro/rel work.