Rochester Rhinos Shuttered

[LeeNYCFC]

Rochester will not field a team in 2018 and this may well be the end for them. The Rhinos have greatly struggled to draw fans to their largely publicly funded stadium since it opened in 2006. The facility is great for a lower league club but has had trouble drawing in a dwindling suburban fan base that considered it to be in a bad part of the city (as a reality check it’s a 3 minutes drive from the Rochester Red Wings Frontier Field which has never shared that stigma).

Unlike the Crew where an owner is stealing a well-supported team, or other clubs who were never given a chance to develop, the Rhinos have fielded a professional product for over 20 years but have found less and less support as time has gone by.

http://www.rhinossoccer.com/news_article/show/861933?referrer_id=2442447

 

[NYCFC_JD]

Very sad to see. I lived in ROC for a little while... Got to some Rhinos games, but wish I had gotten to more. Rochester is hard to read as a sports town... mostly the only thing anyone cares about is the Bills. The stadium was actually pretty good... nice views, pretty great food and drink options... Not a great area of the city and if I remember right, parking was very difficult/limited at and around the stadium (I think that may have been the biggest factor for a crowd of mostly families with little kids, coming form the burbs and needing to hunt for parking in a not-so-great area).

Forget which soccer analyst made this point, but there's also a huge emotional factor. This team came SO CLOSE to making it into MLS. They're the last non-MLS team to win USOC. Imagine if Cinci got this far in expansion, and then NEVER made it into MLS, and knew they'd never have a shot again. That wouldn't just be bad, it'd be arguably worse than never coming close to MLS at all. Which is interesting, because that may happen to a lot of clubs in our country in the next 15-20 years. Will be interesting to see how other fan bases respond.

 

[LeeNYCFC]

Very sad to see. I lived in ROC for a little while... Got to some Rhinos games, but wish I had gotten to more. Rochester is hard to read as a sports town... mostly the only thing anyone cares about is the Bills. The stadium was actually pretty good... nice views, pretty great food and drink options... Not a great area of the city and if I remember right, parking was very difficult/limited at and around the stadium (I think that may have been the biggest factor for a crowd of mostly families with little kids, coming form the burbs and needing to hunt for parking in a not-so-great area).

Forget which soccer analyst made this point, but there's also a huge emotional factor. This team came SO CLOSE to making it into MLS. They're the last non-MLS team to win USOC. Imagine if Cinci got this far in expansion, and then NEVER made it into MLS, and knew they'd never have a shot again. That wouldn't just be bad, it'd be arguably worse than never coming close to MLS at all. Which is interesting, because that may happen to a lot of clubs in our country in the next 15-20 years. Will be interesting to see how other fan bases respond.

Yes lived and attended some matches up there as well. I recall not insufficient parking so much as a big stadium lot that was a rip-off and smaller street lots that everybody packed into to save money. One of the many aspects of selling its product the club seemed to struggle with.

I agree on the emotion of the fans. At the time I would participate in the Rhinos supporters boards and many of them 10-15 years on were still hung up on not having gotten a spot in MLS. One of the many dangers of the moment with MLS expansion and the former ambitions of NASL and Pro-Zealots is creating that feeling that fans shouldn’t be satisfied with watching D2 or D3.

 

[gbservis]

Rochester will not field a team in 2018 and this may well be the end for them. The Rhinos have greatly struggled to draw fans to their largely publicly funded stadium since it opened in 2006. The facility is great for a lower league club but has had trouble drawing in a dwindling suburban fan base that considered it to be in a bad part of the city (as a reality check it’s a 3 minutes drive from the Rochester Red Wings Frontier Field which has never shared that stigma).

Unlike the Crew where an owner is stealing a well-supported team, or other clubs who were never given a chance to develop, the Rhinos have fielded a professional product for over 20 years but have found less and less support as time has gone by.

http://www.rhinossoccer.com/news_article/show/861933?referrer_id=2442447

I grew up in Rochester going to Rhinos games so this is terribly sad news. The Rhinos hooked me on following professional soccer at a young age. The first MLS team I ever saw play live was when the Rhinos played the Tampa Bay Mutiny led by Carlos Valderrama. I moved away 18 years ago although my parents still live there I unfortunately never made it to the soccer specific stadium. All the games I went to were played at Frontier Field (AAA baseball stadium). Strange that they spent so long drawing decent crowds in a baseball stadium only to fail after finally getting a SSS. I agree "bad neighborhood' excuse never seemed like a plausible explanation. They have built super nice things like the high falls entertainment area that are in "safe" areas and they have also failed. I do agree parking is a big thing, it does seem like people coming in from the Rochester suburbs will only do so when the parking is easy and free. I also get the fatigue part the buzz in the late 90s when I was going to games was that the jump to MLS was nearly imminent but every year it wouldn't come.

 

[mgarbowski]

I read the announcement and have a couple of questions:

It says the stadium will host USL matches next year; matchups TBD. Is it normal for USL teams to play in neutral sites?

They throw in a dig about not getting a portion of the Hotel Occupancy Tax. Does anyone know where it is directed? Does some go to the baseball team/stadium?

I've been to Rochester only once for 2-3 days, but I have fond memories of the visit.

 

[LeeNYCFC]

I read the announcement and have a couple of questions:

The throw in a dig about not getting a portion of the Hotel Occupancy Tax. Does anyone know where it is directed? Does some go to the baseball team/stadium?

Yes, Frontier Field received $500,000 for 2017, Rhinos $0. Frontier Field was fully funded by the state and county and has been leased by the Red Wings. So why the city is allowing one to benefit back from the hotel tax and not the other I couldn’t say.

 

[nickp91]

I remember when Rochester was even considered a true candidate for a MLS bid

 

[mgarbowski]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1433055661747810304

This is arguably the dumbest and most disappointing US soccer generic copycat pseudo-European rebrand ever.

ETA: I mean, glad the club is back. But is it really and why would anyone outside of Rochester care now? I've got a Rhinos jersey in my office. Time to dig it out.

 

[Fantazma]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1433055661747810304

This is arguably the dumbest and most disappointing US soccer generic copycat pseudo-European rebrand ever.

ETA: I mean, glad the club is back. But is it really and why would anyone outside of Rochester care now? I've got a Rhinos jersey in my office. Time to dig it out.

its disappointing but the team needs people within its city to go to games, if this generic ass name is going to do that then they doing it. The big issue before IIRC is the location of the stadium and lack of marketing in the city, plus i read the city as a whole is losing people.

EDIT: the direction seems clear with all rebrands. they need the casuals to be interested.

 

[Gotham Gator]

What's especially hilarious, or ridiculous, or an example of Orwellian doublespeak, is that they explain the change by saying they want Rochester to be the most recognizable 2nd division team in the world.

Being the only soccer team named "Rhinos" is recognizable. Being the 900th named FC is not.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

As a former Rochesterian, I can confidently state that A) there is no one from Rochester that prefers this rebrand, and B) it is f'ing stupid.

 

[ZYanksRule]

Question: Does anyone really think that a rebrand is going to increase interest?

"Oh, I couldn't care less about the Rochester Rhinos, but now that they're Rochester New York FC I'm all in now!"

Come on. The only thing these rebrands do is put money into the pockets of the advisors who "helped."

 

[mgarbowski]

I get the logic for this in MLS, though I disagree: the idea is that there are a decent number of "domestic soccer snobs" who look down on MLS for some combination of (1) inferior talent, (2) wrong season of play, (3) having playoffs, (4) no Pro-Rel and (5) silly names. #1 is improving but there will always be a gap. ##2-4 are basically not going away. So you change #5. I disagree because I think nobody is fooled by changing the names and I don't think it makes sense to change a thing simply because it is easy to change when it's not what really causes your problem.

But for teams like the Rhinos, it makes even less sense, because the gap between them and first level soccer overseas is immense and unmistakable. There cannot be a substantial number of people in Rochester who want to watch serious soccer and were staying away from the Rhinos because of their name, and now will think, oh maybe this is more like the Premier League. I refuse to believe that unless someone does show me actual solid evidence. What the team has, what it can sell, is local pride, culture, relevance and history.

Also the above only goes for Euro soccer snobs. The substantial Latin American soccer fan population in the US often comes from cultures where team names are maybe not universal but pretty damn common and often enough adopted from English models: Chivas, Pumas, Newell's Old Boys, Defense and Justice, Tiger, Torque, Wanderers. I don't think team nicknames is an obstacle to reaching this market.

 

[Fantazma]

I get the logic for this in MLS, though I disagree: the idea is that there are a decent number of "domestic soccer snobs" who look down on MLS for some combination of (1) inferior talent, (2) wrong season of play, (3) having playoffs, (4) no Pro-Rel and (5) silly names. #1 is improving but there will always be a gap. ##2-4 are basically not going away. So you change #5. I disagree because I think nobody is fooled by changing the names and I don't think it makes sense to change a thing simply because it is easy to change when it's not what really causes your problem.

But for teams like the Rhinos, it makes even less sense, because the gap between them and first level soccer overseas is immense and unmistakable. There cannot be a substantial number of people in Rochester who want to watch serious soccer and were staying away from the Rhinos because of their name, and now will think, oh maybe this is more like the Premier League. I refuse to believe that unless someone does show me actual solid evidence. What the team has, what it can sell, is local pride, culture, relevance and history.

Also the above only goes for Euro soccer snobs. The substantial Latin American soccer fan population in the US often comes from cultures where team names are maybe not universal but pretty damn common and often enough adopted from English models: Chivas, Pumas, Newell's Old Boys, Defense and Justice, Tiger, Torque, Wanderers. I don't think team nicknames is an obstacle to reaching this market.

Only San Antonio i can think of that was kinda similar. They were the scorpions ( not too historic but it was their name) and then changed to the spurs inspired logo ( San Antonio FC), everyone outside of San Antonio hated it but people in San Antonio seemed to have liked it. I think the attendance is similar as it was before. Though i dont think the "euro snobs" are the targets here. This is literally others sports or other non soccer people to have a team to watch locally.

just and FYI for the mexican teams. they are not officially called chivas ( Club Deportivo Guadalajara) or pumas ( Club Universidad Nacional). they are nicknames that have been widely adopted like an official name all over.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

I refuse to believe that unless someone does show me actual solid evidence. What the team has, what it can sell, is local pride, culture, relevance and history.

Exactly. Rochester is never going to be large enough to have a first division soccer team (barring pro-rel, which, well....). It can, however, be a successful second league team that steers into the local rather than away from it. To wit:

-the Rhinos were the only non-division one team to win the US Open Cup (1999)​

-the Rochester Lancers were the only smaller city team to win the original NASL Soccer Bowl (1970, during the Cosmos peak)​

-Abby Wambach is from Rochester (and the 2016 NWSL champions were the Western New York Flash)​

-there are twice as many high schools with soccer teams than with football teams​

The single best thing that the team could do is to work out stadium rental with the city government (so familiar...). The existing soccer specific stadium seats 13,000 and is near the minor league baseball park - a 15 minute walk across the river from the Genesee Brew House and a 15 minute drive from all the restaurants and breweries in NOTA (shout out to Three Heads). I am sure that the local eateries would be glad to work out a game day food arrangement.

Rhinos, Raging or not, is distinctive and suitable for a smaller city. RNYFC is as dumb as St. Louis City SC. Maybe worse.

 

[moogoo]

How much is this is Vardy wanting a more English name and how much of it is trying to appeal to locals?

I read they are trying to get accepted into MLS LDL.

 

[Fantazma]

How much is this is Vardy wanting a more English name and how much of it is trying to appeal to locals?

I read they are trying to get accepted into MLS LDL.

i thought it was accepted already.

 

[moogoo]

i thought it was accepted already.

everything i read said they are in negotiations with several leagues, one of which is MLS LDL

 

[Fantazma]

everything i read said they are in negotiations with several leagues, one of which is MLS LDL

they were going to go back to USL 1 next year but i assume that changed? its either them or MLS 2. Aint no way they go to NISA since they have flower city already.

 

[Fantazma]

The single best thing that the team could do is to work out stadium rental with the city government (so familiar...). The existing soccer specific stadium seats 13,000 and is near the minor league baseball park - a 15 minute walk across the river from the Genesee Brew House and a 15 minute drive from all the restaurants and breweries in NOTA (shout out to Three Heads). I am sure that the local eateries would be glad to work out a game day food arrangement.

doesnt flower city Union have dibs on that stadium already?