Gedion Zelalem Signs for NYCFC

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Kjbert

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If he turns out to be as good as Tony Rocha for us this year, it’s a good signing. There is not going to be a lot asked of him.

If he grows into an under the radar success like an Aaron Long or Benny Feilhaber over the next two years, then we just won the offseason.
 

Shwafta

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If he turns out to be as good as Tony Rocha for us this year, it’s a good signing. There is not going to be a lot asked of him.

If he grows into an under the radar success like an Aaron Long or Benny Feilhaber over the next two years, then we just won the offseason.
I think it'll be a tight race between Zelalem and Rocha for the Ben Sweat award this year. I'm fairly comfortable that basically the rest of the squad is above and beyond Ben Sweat Award-quality, so I hope you're right!
 

Kjbert

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I think it'll be a tight race between Zelalem and Rocha for the Ben Sweat award this year. I'm fairly comfortable that basically the rest of the squad is above and beyond Ben Sweat Award-quality, so I hope you're right!
I feel like a proud dad that the Ben Sweat Award has caught on.

When do we think it’s appropriate to start our annual thread on awards and stats?
 
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Schwallacus

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I would say soon would make sense? Maybe a few weeks before the CCL game?
Give it until the end of this month, early next since I presume there will be another few signings or moves. We have made major team changing signings early into the season (Heber) so it kind of skews the preseason awards if done way too early. May help to see who Deila seems to lean toward both formation and player-wise.
 

Gotham Gator

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Let's put it this way. If someone puts up a pre-season prediction thread now, I am not filling it out until the day before our first game anyway. Better to be patient.

And it might be worth starting a thread to solicit ideas for predictions and to figure out who is taking the responsibility, so that there is no incentive to put something up quickly.
 

Yankeedom

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If he turns out to be as good as Tony Rocha for us this year, it’s a good signing. There is not going to be a lot asked of him.

If he grows into an under the radar success like an Aaron Long or Benny Feilhaber over the next two years, then we just won the offseason.
I think this is a dangerous game to play. I assume you're implying that if he has the same kind of "impact" as Rocha, it will be a positive for this team, but I believe it's highly irresponsible to compare those two players in any way. Their games are entirely different and it's really not fair to either player.

It's like comparing a linebacker who excels in pass protection, to a free safety. Of course you can do it but it doesn't really make sense to.
 
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Christopher Jee

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I think this is a dangerous game to play. I assume you're implying that if he has the same kind of "impact" as Rocha, it will be a positive for this team, but I believe it's highly irresponsible to compare those two players in any way. Their games are entirely different and it's really not fair to either player.

It's like comparing a linebacker who excels in pass protection, to a free safety. Of course you can do it but it doesn't really make sense to.
Hmm how dangerous is it really?

Is Kjbert way more influential than I think he is? I mean no offense to K Kjbert but what are the negative consequences of this that make this comparison so irresponsible?
 
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VernonJohn

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I think this is a dangerous game to play. I assume you're implying that if he has the same kind of "impact" as Rocha, it will be a positive for this team, but I believe it's highly irresponsible to compare those two players in any way. Their games are entirely different and it's really not fair to either player.

It's like comparing a linebacker who excels in pass protection, to a free safety. Of course you can do it but it doesn't really make sense to.
i don’t think Kjbert was comparing Rocha’s and Zelalem’s style of play or position.
Dome found a way to use Rocha in limited minutes that in the end resulted in what I would argue was a net positive effect. Rocha looked awful early on but put in some good shifts as the season progressed. If Zelalem, who is essentially a cast off, has any net positive effect in whatever minutes he can get, then maybe he’s “like Rocha”. I think Kjbert is alluding to the low expectations but decent return of the Rocha move. Few people if any are expecting Z to be a game changer or Rocha.
 

Yankeedom

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Hmm how dangerous is it really?

Is Kjbert way more influential than I think he is? I mean no offense to K Kjbert but what are the negative consequences of this that make this comparison so irresponsible?
Unfortunate I don't know how to "double quote" in one post, which is one reason why my quoting of K Kjbert 's last post may have lead to a lack of clarity. I should have quoted his and Shwafta Shwafta last posts together. Please see my response to VernonJohn below.
 

Kjbert

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Yes. I’m saying that if contributes to the level of impact that Rocha did - deep bench, consistency, error free, a handful of moments of brilliance - then this is a good signing. That’s my expectation. Play mistake free soccer, put in shifts, be ready to play.
 
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Yankeedom

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i don’t think Kjbert was comparing Rocha’s and Zelalem’s style of play or position.
Dome found a way to use Rocha in limited minutes that in the end resulted in what I would argue was a net positive effect. Rocha looked awful early on but put in some good shifts as the season progressed. If Zelalem, who is essentially a cast off, has any net positive effect in whatever minutes he can get, then maybe he’s “like Rocha”. I think Kjbert is alluding to the low expectations but decent return of the Rocha move. Few people if any are expecting Z to be a game changer or Rocha.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting K Kjbert was comparing GZ's and Rocha's playing style, however I do think it's a tough ask to compare similarities in "impact" when discussing such vastly different players.

I tried using the NFL comparison of a LB to a free safety in the sense that if you had a bad pass defense in 20xx and brought in a run of the mill LB whose strength lay in pass coverage and he was deemed to have a positive "impact" on improving the team's defense, it would then be unfair to hold the new free safety (who was acquired the following off-season) to the same "standard" of impact; especially under a new head coach and presumably a somewhat different system.

Shwafta Shwafta mentioned GZ and Rocha would be in competition to not win the Ben Sweat award. Maybe I'm being pedantic but again I'm not sure you can compare Rocha or Gideon to Ben. All three players are asked to do completely different things.

The reason why I think it's "dangerous" (likely hyperbolic) stems from my believe that you can't really compare the impact that player A will bring over player B because their games are so different.

What if at the conclusion of the 2020 season we end up with the same exact point total, W/L/D record and goal differential as last year (including the same type of postseason exit), and after completing a detailed analysis we come to find that the team scored more goals (but surrendered more goals) when GZ was playing and scored fewer goals (but also surrendered fewer goals) when Rocha was playing (assuming of course that they started/subbed and played in the same amount of minutes)? How do you measure impact?

I actually think Rocha is much more Ben than GZ is but I'm not about to make that comparison because they play entirely different positions and for me they're different players.

I don't want GZ to be considered a flop or less impactful because he's compared to Rocha for better or for worse. Maybe Rocha helps us preserve one win by way of a dangerous tackle in our own box which should have been a penalty but wasn't called. Maybe GZ helps us win 3 games because he was supremely efficient in his passing and tidy in possession, minimizing the opponents scoring opportunities and maximizing ours. You can easily quantify Rocha's game saving tackle, but it is much harder to quantify GZ's impact on the offense as a whole.
 

Christopher Jee

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I wasn't necessarily suggesting K Kjbert was comparing GZ's and Rocha's playing style, however I do think it's a tough ask to compare similarities in "impact" when discussing such vastly different players.

I tried using the NFL comparison of a LB to a free safety in the sense that if you had a bad pass defense in 20xx and brought in a run of the mill LB whose strength lay in pass coverage and he was deemed to have a positive "impact" on improving the team's defense, it would then be unfair to hold the new free safety (who was acquired the following off-season) to the same "standard" of impact; especially under a new head coach and presumably a somewhat different system.

Shwafta Shwafta mentioned GZ and Rocha would be in competition to not win the Ben Sweat award. Maybe I'm being pedantic but again I'm not sure you can compare Rocha or Gideon to Ben. All three players are asked to do completely different things.

The reason why I think it's "dangerous" (likely hyperbolic) stems from my believe that you can't really compare the impact that player A will bring over player B because their games are so different.

What if at the conclusion of the 2020 season we end up with the same exact point total, W/L/D record and goal differential as last year (including the same type of postseason exit), and after completing a detailed analysis we come to find that the team scored more goals (but surrendered more goals) when GZ was playing and scored fewer goals (but also surrendered fewer goals) when Rocha was playing (assuming of course that they started/subbed and played in the same amount of minutes)? How do you measure impact?

I actually think Rocha is much more Ben than GZ is but I'm not about to make that comparison because they play entirely different positions and for me they're different players.

I don't want GZ to be considered a flop or less impactful because he's compared to Rocha for better or for worse. Maybe Rocha helps us preserve one win by way of a dangerous tackle in our own box which should have been a penalty but wasn't called. Maybe GZ helps us win 3 games because he was supremely efficient in his passing and tidy in possession, minimizing the opponents scoring opportunities and maximizing ours. You can easily quantify Rocha's game saving tackle, but it is much harder to quantify GZ's impact on the offense as a whole.
Definitely agree that it's difficult to flatten all of the dimensions of a player's game into one measure (say, impact) that can be used to compare that player with another player.

And even if that was possible, the fact that those players cannot receive the same pass or play in the same position in the same game at the same time means that the comparison would be unfair.

However:

A) it's something analogous to what we (as a club) have to do when it comes to figuring out how to value contributions of players and determine the optimal salary cap and roster composition.

B) our guesstimations of relative impact of players say much of our individualized understanding of the game and by sharing said guesstimations we stand a chance at broadening our intersubjective understanding of the game individually and as a fanbase. Which is pretty cool.

Long live the Ben Sweat award.
 
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Shwafta

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Definitely agree that it's difficult to flatten all of the dimensions of a player's game into one measure (say, impact) that can be used to compare that player with another player.

And even if that was possible, the fact that those players cannot receive the same pass or play in the same position in the same game at the same time means that the comparison would be unfair.

However:

A) it's something analogous to what we (as a club) have to do when it comes to figuring out how to value contributions of players and determine the optimal salary cap and roster composition.

B) our guesstimations of relative impact of players say much of our individualized understanding of the game and by sharing said guesstimations we stand a chance at broadening our intersubjective understanding of the game individually and as a fanbase. Which is pretty cool.

Long live the Ben Sweat award.
This.
It's not about the objective "how good", but the subjective "how good you expected x to be at the start, but then he overachieved my expectations to where I put him"

So player A could have a bar set in my head at 45% and player B could have a bar at 60%. If player A does 50% and B does 70%, I'm still picking B as overachiever bc in my head that's what I picture as "overachieved", not because statistically his Gx was above average
 

Seth

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