I’m getting real tired of playing the Shitty Way.
Domènec Torrent Appointed NYCFC Head Coach (June '18) / Mutually Agree to Part Ways (November '19)
- Thread starter LionNYC
- Start date
Nah man, we’re getting really good at it, and it’s become like second nature for them.
Some of the players were very honest tonight at the NYCFC awards. I'll refrain from mentioning who said what or how they feel out of respect for their privacy, but it should be obvious to all at this point...the pineapple is not pretty.
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Upset with Dome or upset with the way things have gone?
Was Dome at the event? Because to talk about him while he’s in the room, even in a private conversation, wow. OTOH, if he didn’t show, wow.
ETA: never mind, saw photos.
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Were they disappointed in the tactics set up by Dome, the players starting? Anything you can share?
Was his initials J.L.? But seriously; Was it a large group or just 1-2 players? Different if 4-5 guys all opened up about that. Bad enough 1-2. But more is a disaster.
Even one player openly kevetching is serious.
The real scoop would be learning it was Patricof and Reyna talking.
Then why'd you say anything at all?
I will argue that Pep's original possession driven teams looked like the bolded line from your post above. Pep didn't exactly have one-touch passing in his repertoire until the past season or two at City. When he was in charge at Bayern, IIRC, he basically wanted them to be able to pass the ball into the net from 3 feet out rather than take a shot. Pep never really believed in quick direct passing to get the ball in the net, but rather lulling the opposing team to sleep before striking. I think he even said that teams need to pass the ball 15+ times (see below) before a shot on goal can be considered.
I think it is the realization that his massive possession system is starting to be figured out by the likes of direct counters (Klopp) that he realized he can't lull opposing teams to sleep anymore, or have wasted possession. The past year or so of Pep ball has started to evolve a from his original ideas when he first started coaching Barca and Bayern. City still dominates possession, but the way in which they move the ball is much quicker and more direct the past year.
I've held out hope that Dome was smarter than Pep, especially after our successes in abandoning possession against Red Bull. But aside from those games, Dome brought back a system of unnecessary possession that doesn't amount to much and looks similar to Pep ball 3-4 years ago. I think Dome is still trying to show that possession leads to victory, whereas newer counter attack play (gegnpressing) has shown to be a useful and effective system against possession.
Quote by Guardiola from Marti Perarnau's book: Pep Confidential
"If there isn't a sequence of 15 passes first, it's impossible to carry out the transition between defense & attack. Impossible. Having the ball is important if you are going for 15 consecutive passes in the middle of the field in order to maintain your shape, whilst at the same time upsetting the opposition's organisation. How do you disorganize them? With fast ,tight, focused passing as a part of this 15-move sequence. You need most of your men working as a unit, although some of them will need to maintain a bit of distance from each other in order to stretch out the rival team. And whilst you make those 15 moves & organize yourselves, your opponents are chasing you all over the park, trying to get the ball from you. In the process, without realizing it, they'll have lost all organisation. If you lose the ball, if they get it off you, then the player who takes will probably be alone & surrounded by your players, who will then get it back easily or, at the very least ensure that the rival team cant maneuver quickly.It's these 15 passes that prevent your rival from making any kind of coordinated transition."
It seems to me that Pep has evolved his team and system whereas Dome is still a few years too slow to see that our possession isn't leading to anything. I will admit I thought Dome was a good coach and his system was going to give us results. However, the team seems to be getting worse with each game instead of better.
Another thing I've noticed with our possession is that while it is nice, it also leads to opposing teams collapsing in the box. They realize we can't do anything in the box if there are already 9 people from both teams running around it. No lanes to pass or shoot result in us taking low-chance shots as evidenced by our xG being average even though we are taking a fuck ton of shots per game, at least at home. Example, DC at home. We didn't have amazing chances at the goal because they housed everyone in their box aside from Rooney up top. Our goal came from a FK outside the box. It wasn't like Hamid was standing on his head all game, he knew where we were going to shoot due to all the traffic around the box. Below, I have shots on Goal and Blocked shots. Our closest attempts on goal are all 11-12 yards out
I wish I wasn't retarded and forgot where
dummyrun gets his xG maps, as I think that would be a better explanation of how we fared at home vs. DC. IIRC, it was just a map of tiny circles everywhere, showing that while we had a ton of chances, most of them were half or quarter chances. Yes Dome, we are getting shots. But increased shot amount doesn't equal better chances at scoring a goal. (Thanks to dummyrun's message) xG vs. DC from the 9/8 game. Just a load of mini pellets and one massive circle. 31 shots should result in a much better xG than 2.04.
Sorry, but I had to rant. Nothing against you The Toe . Just a breakdown of Pep vs. Dome from a StillAngry@PepBayernFan's PoV.
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wheredummyrun gets his xG maps
Baer usually tweets out Opta xG maps.
Thanks! I've added it to the original post.
POTY candidate. Best plausible explanation of what is going on that I've seen. Reminds me of a few things.I will argue that Pep's original possession driven teams looked like the bolded line from your post above. Pep didn't exactly have one-touch passing in his repertoire until the past season or two at City. When he was in charge at Bayern, IIRC, he basically wanted them to be able to pass the ball into the net from 3 feet out rather than take a shot. Pep never really believed in quick direct passing to get the ball in the net, but rather lulling the opposing team to sleep before striking. I think he even said that teams need to pass the ball 15+ times (see below) before a shot on goal can be considered.
I think it is the realization that his massive possession system is starting to be figured out by the likes of direct counters (Klopp) that he realized he can't lull opposing teams to sleep anymore, or have wasted possession. The past year or so of Pep ball has started to evolve a from his original ideas when he first started coaching Barca and Bayern. City still dominates possession, but the way in which they move the ball is much quicker and more direct the past year.
I've held out hope that Dome was smarter than Pep, especially after our successes in abandoning possession against Red Bull. But aside from those games, Dome brought back a system of unnecessary possession that doesn't amount to much and looks similar to Pep ball 3-4 years ago. I think Dome is still trying to show that possession leads to victory, whereas newer counter attack play (gegnpressing) has shown to be a useful and effective system against possession.
Quote by Guardiola from Marti Perarnau's book: Pep Confidential
"If there isn't a sequence of 15 passes first, it's impossible to carry out the transition between defense & attack. Impossible. Having the ball is important if you are going for 15 consecutive passes in the middle of the field in order to maintain your shape, whilst at the same time upsetting the opposition's organisation. How do you disorganize them? With fast ,tight, focused passing as a part of this 15-move sequence. You need most of your men working as a unit, although some of them will need to maintain a bit of distance from each other in order to stretch out the rival team. And whilst you make those 15 moves & organize yourselves, your opponents are chasing you all over the park, trying to get the ball from you. In the process, without realizing it, they'll have lost all organisation. If you lose the ball, if they get it off you, then the player who takes will probably be alone & surrounded by your players, who will then get it back easily or, at the very least ensure that the rival team cant maneuver quickly.It's these 15 passes that prevent your rival from making any kind of coordinated transition."
It seems to me that Pep has evolved his team and system whereas Dome is still a few years too slow to see that our possession isn't leading to anything. I will admit I thought Dome was a good coach and his system was going to give us results. However, the team seems to be getting worse with each game instead of better.
Another thing I've noticed with our possession is that while it is nice, it also leads to opposing teams collapsing in the box. They realize we can't do anything in the box if there are already 9 people from both teams running around it. No lanes to pass or shoot result in us taking low-chance shots as evidenced by our xG being average even though we are taking a fuck ton of shots per game, at least at home. Example, DC at home. We didn't have amazing chances at the goal because they housed everyone in their box aside from Rooney up top. Our goal came from a FK outside the box. It wasn't like Hamid was standing on his head all game, he knew where we were going to shoot due to all the traffic around the box. Below, I have shots on Goal and Blocked shots. Our closest attempts on goal are all 11-12 yards out
View attachment 9262
I wish I wasn't retarded and forgot where
(Thanks to dummyrun's message) xG vs. DC from the 9/8 game. Just a load of mini pellets and one massive circle. 31 shots should result in a much better xG than 2.04.
Sorry, but I had to rant. Nothing against you The Toe . Just a breakdown of Pep vs. Dome from a StillAngry@PepBayernFan's PoV.
First, a few years ago, there were a string of "Pep hates tiki taka" interviews and articles. They are easy to find if you want to look them up, but the essence is that Pep considered tiki taka to mean nothing more than aimless quick passes. He contrasted his style at both Barcelona and Munich as being passing with a purpose, and the purpose was to tire the other team as it chased the ball, then overload one side of the field, which destroys the shape of the defense, and you switch the field and attack from the other side. As you point out, though, this doesn't work when the other side decides not to chase and just sits back waiting for you to either bring the ball up and face them with a box full of well-placed defenders, or make a mistake and they counter.
Second, Bobby Warshaw had an interesting article roughly a week ago about the West conference, in which he compared 3 styles of play to rock/paper/scissors. Like any extended analogy it fails if you look too hard, and he acknowledges its limitations, but it still helps me think about some things. It runs like this:
ROCK = Defend and Counter
SCISSORS = Possession
PAPER = Combination style
And as always, Rock breaks Scissors, which cuts Paper, which covers Rock. I'll skip the extended recapitulation: the link is here for anyone who wants to read it.
But the bottom line for NYCFC is that a slow, plodding possession team is susceptible to defend and counter.
Finally, if you read the "Pep-hates-tiki-taka" stuff from 3-5 years ago, you'll also see that Pep can be all over the place. Sometimes he expressed a preference for a style of play that aligns with what
Schwallacus wrote. Other times he says possession football has to be fast to keep the defense disorganized. From which I gather that Pep has an active mind, and he probably just hates the term "tiki taka" -- and resents a perceived association it with aimlessness. But he's always adjusting. In contrast, Dome seems fixed on the slow, methodical passing approach and he's not adjusting. And I'm now seeing one further parallel. I'm thinking of when Pirlo first showed up. For a very brief period he was magical, but he quickly hit a rough spot after MLS figured out how methodical he was. They would have the closest defender mark him tightly as soon as he got the ball and it put him through a rough patch that lasted, maybe a month? Then he himself adjusted by playing just a bit faster. It was a trade-off: he gave up a bit of vision but in exchange had more openings through which to pass, he and started playing much better again (until his body betrayed him in his last season). But the key point is, he adjusted when the league took advantage of his tendency for slow play. Why won't Dome do the same thing?
I think the difference between the Pirlo example and Dome is that Pirlo has a lot of control over Pirlo and that Dome appears to have very little control over the team.POTY candidate. Best plausible explanation of what is going on that I've seen. Reminds me of a few things.
First, a few years ago, there were a string of "Pep hates tiki taka" interviews and articles. They are easy to find if you want to look them up, but the essence is that Pep considered tiki taka to mean nothing more than aimless quick passes. He contrasted his style at both Barcelona and Munich as being passing with a purpose, and the purpose was to tire the other team as it chased the ball, then overload one side of the field, which destroys the shape of the defense, and you switch the field and attack from the other side. As you point out, though, this doesn't work when the other side decides not to chase and just sits back waiting for you to either bring the ball up and face them with a box full of well-placed defenders, or make a mistake and they counter.
Second, Bobby Warshaw had an interesting article roughly a week ago about the West conference, in which he compared 3 styles of play to rock/paper/scissors. Like any extended analogy it fails if you look too hard, and he acknowledges its limitations, but it still helps me think about some things. It runs like this:
ROCK = Defend and Counter
SCISSORS = Possession
PAPER = Combination style
And as always, Rock breaks Scissors, which cuts Paper, which covers Rock. I'll skip the extended recapitulation: the link is here for anyone who wants to read it.
But the bottom line for NYCFC is that a slow, plodding possession team is susceptible to defend and counter.
Finally, if you read the "Pep-hates-tiki-taka" stuff from 3-5 years ago, you'll also see that Pep can be all over the place. Sometimes he expressed a preference for a style of play that aligns with what
Why won't Dome do the same thing?
Example - I've heard him say we aren't defending high enough maybe 5 times in post match.
This is also consistent with how many of us like what he says about how he wants to play football but aren't satisfied with the end result.
POTY candidate. Best plausible explanation of what is going on that I've seen. Reminds me of a few things.
First, a few years ago, there were a string of "Pep hates tiki taka" interviews and articles. They are easy to find if you want to look them up, but the essence is that Pep considered tiki taka to mean nothing more than aimless quick passes. He contrasted his style at both Barcelona and Munich as being passing with a purpose, and the purpose was to tire the other team as it chased the ball, then overload one side of the field, which destroys the shape of the defense, and you switch the field and attack from the other side. As you point out, though, this doesn't work when the other side decides not to chase and just sits back waiting for you to either bring the ball up and face them with a box full of well-placed defenders, or make a mistake and they counter.
Second, Bobby Warshaw had an interesting article roughly a week ago about the West conference, in which he compared 3 styles of play to rock/paper/scissors. Like any extended analogy it fails if you look too hard, and he acknowledges its limitations, but it still helps me think about some things. It runs like this:
ROCK = Defend and Counter
SCISSORS = Possession
PAPER = Combination style
And as always, Rock breaks Scissors, which cuts Paper, which covers Rock. I'll skip the extended recapitulation: the link is here for anyone who wants to read it.
But the bottom line for NYCFC is that a slow, plodding possession team is susceptible to defend and counter.
Finally, if you read the "Pep-hates-tiki-taka" stuff from 3-5 years ago, you'll also see that Pep can be all over the place. Sometimes he expressed a preference for a style of play that aligns with what
Why won't Dome do the same thing?
This also aligns well with the change in passing styles we are seeing. The instructions from PV were to play from the back at all costs with fast 1 touch passing, maintaining possession is a secondary objective that should never take priority over the primary objectives. Dome's approach seems to be, try to maintain possession at all costs no matter how much you have to slow it down or how many touches are needed to find the safe pass.
I will likely explain this poorly because I'm no tactical expert but many of the problems with Dome's approach seem to be another iteration of adjusting to the MLS and the way MLS teams press the ball regardless of where it is on the pitch. Generally when I watch top flight teams many will press high in their attacking zone to try to win the ball back. Once they fail and the ball moves towards the midfield they back off the ball, work on getting organized defensively while trying to shut down the passing lanes. Once the ball moves towards the defending teams goal pressure picks up again. As a result the space around the centerline becomes a bit of a safe zone for offensive players to spend extra time on ball and for teams to get organized. Pressing an elite distributor in this zone is suicide when the rest of the team is packed with world class weapons. These teams can control the ball in tight space, and can unlock attackers that will make you pay for taking the risk of pressing them in this area.
The problem is that the MLS is not packed with world class weapons, it's filled with athletic grinders that are not in higher leagues because they are less tactically skilled. The same area that is often the safe zone in the top flight leagues is one of the highest pressure areas on an MLS pitch. Go ahead and press the hell out of Ring, what are his options. He could pass to Ofori who is going to give you 3 seconds to recover as he has to go through the process of taking 2 touches to get the ball on his preferred foot. Alternately Ring could try to play the ball up to one of the wings or an overlapping fullback almost all of which will take multiple long touches to settle the ball before becoming any sort of danger. Dome is completely failing to adjust to this. He's having our guys sit on ball in this area which is exactly where MLS teams want to defend and force a turnover. I have never been in on the "only MLS insiders know how to win in MLS" narrative and I still don't buy it but any coach the team brings in needs to be capable of adjusting way faster than Dome has thus far. PV was an outsider and he quickly found a solution which was fast passing so that our players rarely got stuck sitting on ball and couldn't be pressed at any place on the field. Dome on the other hand has essentially built a system that makes out midfielders sitting ducks exactly where MLS teams want them to be.
I think that in time and with the right players Dome's tactics would work in the same way that Pep struggled in his first season - it took a season of coaching and 2 big transfer windows to do it.
However i think its clear Dome has lost the dressing room, the players always believed in Pep's methods because of his track record whereas our players must think well we were doing really well before and now we are changing stuff and losing. Tactically i think hes a good coach but he lacks man-management skills - something Pep is very good at.
Whats annoying is we have thrown away our chance at the cup, i think it will take at least a year or 2 to rebuild to get back to the level we were at with PV. We had the team to do it this year.
However i think its clear Dome has lost the dressing room, the players always believed in Pep's methods because of his track record whereas our players must think well we were doing really well before and now we are changing stuff and losing. Tactically i think hes a good coach but he lacks man-management skills - something Pep is very good at.
Whats annoying is we have thrown away our chance at the cup, i think it will take at least a year or 2 to rebuild to get back to the level we were at with PV. We had the team to do it this year.
This is very well put. I wonder if PV was able to adjust better because he simply had the ability to, or because his previous experience was with the EDS who in turn would have less technical ability akin to MLS and thus he already had some of those ideas in the back of his mind.
Tough to say without watching film on how the EDS played while PV was there though.
PV also had about 20 fewer years of coaching experience. He probably still knows less than Torrent, but he's also less likely to be too fixed in certain ways.
Which is why I'm annoyed and disappointed with Torrent, but I have vile nasty thoughts about PV, and about NYCFC and CFG management, for Vieira's dragged out 2- month departure saga, then not only leaving but taking his entire staff, and us not even getting compensation, and not having any path for Vieira to advance within CFG once they extended Pep's contract, and for all the BS happy talk about how this just helps us hire talent in the future. Plus, somebody -- Reyna, Soriano, hell maybe even Pep -- should have sat Dome down before he was hired and said "This is your first head coaching job in 2 damn decades and your first not in a B league. You're taking over a team playing the best ball in its history halfway through a season. Don't! Fucking! Break! It! Change is for the next year. Got it?!?!?!"
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