Premier League 16/17

[mgarbowski]

Swans had a terrible summer transfer market. They were weak going in. They lost their best or next best offensive player (Ayew) and their Captain, best defender and soul of the team in Ashley Williams. They bought 2 Spanish strikers and the old one who was supposed to be a part time filler is the only one who performed and got minutes under either manager. They replaced Williams with a 22 year old (Mawson) who never played at this level before. I think he has promise but he hardly replaced what was lost. With all the money coming in they seemed frozen, probably as a result of the ongoing negotiations over the sale of the team. Neither manager got a fair shake this year. But neither achieved much either. Bradley had to get some results to buy time until the January window and he couldn't do it. It was part lack of talent, a wee bit of bad luck and mostly just a terrible situation overall. The offense improved and the team moved better under him but the defense turned to shit. This surprised me because I thought he would be very back-to-basics under the circumstances.
The new owners, IMO, decided to sack him to prove they didn't just hire him to market the team to America. If you think the English are provincial with the BBC OMG he said PK bullshit you should see what the Welsh have been saying. They blame the new American owners for not spending any money even though they haven't been through a transfer window yet themselves. The sale came through after the season started. The deal might have closed before the window closed but not by much, if so. But the Swansea fans seem to think the new owners are focused on profits and cost cutting, even though that makes no sense and buying a PL team only to let it get relegated is not a good investment under any circumstances. And the assumption is they hired Bradley just to get more US fans.
Part of it is the history. Round when they started their climb from the bottom of the pyramid they had some foreign owners, Australian if I remember right, and the local fans thought the same thing back then, The economics of it didn't make any more sense then than it did now as those owners bought a team wallowing in unsustainable debt, tried to turn things around, and simply failed. If they had scuttled the team, which is what they were accused of wanting to do, they could never have come out ahead with all the debt they bought. In any event it all turned around when a group of mostly local business owners bought the club, got things in order, and started making good decisions. Now everyone in Swansea pretty much hates them too because of they way it turned out. Those folks did make a killing, which they never could have expected back when, and it is possible they made decisions in the last few years to maximize the sale value rather than maximize the club's chances. But given all they did and all they risked back when the club was on the brink I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt too. Sometimes people can make good decisions to build a business or team and help it grow to the top but when they get there they somehow cannot manage to deal with a successful enterprise instead of a growing and struggling one.

 

[Falastur]

His training ideas were good enough to take a point off a superior English team coached by an Englishman when on the biggest stage; and in truth, his team should have had all three points.

I really don't know enough about the training thing to comment - although I have seen that a Welsh news source believe that the players genuinely had no problem with it - but I don't think you can use one good game out of 11 to prove anything. If this had been how they had been performing every game then fine, but unfortunately it's not.

The thing you really need to look at is Swansea's defence in the time Bradley had been there. In his 11 games, the Swans conceded 29 goals - that's 2.64 a game, or enough to concede exactly 100 goals in a 38-game season, which would equal Swindow Town's record from 1993-94, when the league was 42 games long, not 38. That's a shambolic stat, and is 4 goals higher than Hull over the same period, who are by all accounts in a right state and headed for the drop. Did Bradley deserve more time? Probably, but in the PL you just don't get that kind of belief, especially when your team is nosediving straight for last place.

The difference between suffering relegation and surviving it is going to be something like £120m next season - that's enough that any ownership group will get nervous and pull the trigger, and certainly a brand new group struggling to get to grips and understand their investment. Him being American generated some negative headlines, but it's not why everyone knew he was going to get canned.

What's surprising is how xenophobic the fan base was to pick on language. What are they hoping for, an elite English manager? Or even a halfway competent one? They'll be waiting forever if the big clubs' preferences are any indication since they all employ foreigners.

You may not like Bradley, but he's got a hell of a more impressive CV than any English manager that gets sacked one day and picked up again by another EPL bottom-dweller.

No, I think they were hoping for a mid-tier foreign manager, like Frank de Boer who is being linked with the vacancy. Barring that, I think they were hoping for a relegation-battle specialist.

The problem is that Bob Bradley's CV can broadly be divided into three categories: 1981-2006, when he managed in the US and won three trophies, though not in a league which is regarded as being that tactically advanced over here in Europe, then 2006-13, when he reinvented himself as an international manager, and was moderately successful (but only moderately), then finally 2014-16, during which time all he has done is finished 9th and 3rd in Norway, then missed promotion in the French second tier.

The first third of that breakdown is considered largely null and void because it A) took place so long ago and B) because he wasn't astoundingly successful then anyway. I'm not going to try to argue like this is the correct way of assessing managerial histories, but this is the way it is - managers are judged on their accomplishments and if you are good at being "quite good", that's not ultimately seen as very impressive. The second third is international football, and it's long since been determined that being a good club manager and a good international manager are not necessarily related traits. The third is a very short list of clubs and very much considered second- or even third-grade. If he'd managed in the French top tier, or in Holland or Denmark or Russia, these would all have been places which would have improved this section of his career history, but ultimately he hadn't. Remember, if you will, that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer came from Norway to manage Cardiff City in 2014 having had comparable experience (though far more success there) and yet despite his pedigree as a former player - which Bradley doesn't have - he was still thought grossly underqualified, and he also didn't last a season.

Is there some bigotry to the dismissal of Bradley's first 25 years? Probably, in all honesty. But does his CV actually stand up to comparison with many of the other managers in the PL right now - discounting the other ones who are also viewed as being in over their heads? For the most part, really not. The same thing counts for far more than just American managers. The "correct" level of experience for managing in the PL is seen (by fans and pundits alike) as either having had most of a decade of strong performance in the Football League (with a minimum of 2-3 seasons of overperformance in the Championship) or 3-4 seasons minimum managing in a top-10 league in Europe. Bradley had neither of these things. That's just the way it is. Does that mean he is incapable of managing at that level? No, but he'll have to prove himself first. Same as all American managers will, and I guarantee you that we won't be waiting a generation for it to happen again. I'd bet 8 years, possibly under 5 if the right man came along.

 

[Ulrich]

I really don't know enough about the training thing to comment - although I have seen that a Welsh news source believe that the players genuinely had no problem with it - but I don't think you can use one good game out of 11 to prove anything. If this had been how they had been performing every game then fine, but unfortunately it's not.

The thing you really need to look at is Swansea's defence in the time Bradley had been there. In his 11 games, the Swans conceded 29 goals - that's 2.64 a game, or enough to concede exactly 100 goals in a 38-game season, which would equal Swindow Town's record from 1993-94, when the league was 42 games long, not 38. That's a shambolic stat, and is 4 goals higher than Hull over the same period, who are by all accounts in a right state and headed for the drop. Did Bradley deserve more time? Probably, but in the PL you just don't get that kind of belief, especially when your team is nosediving straight for last place.

The difference between suffering relegation and surviving it is going to be something like £120m next season - that's enough that any ownership group will get nervous and pull the trigger, and certainly a brand new group struggling to get to grips and understand their investment. Him being American generated some negative headlines, but it's not why everyone knew he was going to get canned.



No, I think they were hoping for a mid-tier foreign manager, like Frank de Boer who is being linked with the vacancy. Barring that, I think they were hoping for a relegation-battle specialist.

The problem is that Bob Bradley's CV can broadly be divided into three categories: 1981-2006, when he managed in the US and won three trophies, though not in a league which is regarded as being that tactically advanced over here in Europe, then 2006-13, when he reinvented himself as an international manager, and was moderately successful (but only moderately), then finally 2014-16, during which time all he has done is finished 9th and 3rd in Norway, then missed promotion in the French second tier.

The first third of that breakdown is considered largely null and void because it A) took place so long ago and B) because he wasn't astoundingly successful then anyway. I'm not going to try to argue like this is the correct way of assessing managerial histories, but this is the way it is - managers are judged on their accomplishments and if you are good at being "quite good", that's not ultimately seen as very impressive. The second third is international football, and it's long since been determined that being a good club manager and a good international manager are not necessarily related traits. The third is a very short list of clubs and very much considered second- or even third-grade. If he'd managed in the French top tier, or in Holland or Denmark or Russia, these would all have been places which would have improved this section of his career history, but ultimately he hadn't. Remember, if you will, that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer came from Norway to manage Cardiff City in 2014 having had comparable experience (though far more success there) and yet despite his pedigree as a former player - which Bradley doesn't have - he was still thought grossly underqualified, and he also didn't last a season.

Is there some bigotry to the dismissal of Bradley's first 25 years? Probably, in all honesty. But does his CV actually stand up to comparison with many of the other managers in the PL right now - discounting the other ones who are also viewed as being in over their heads? For the most part, really not. The same thing counts for far more than just American managers. The "correct" level of experience for managing in the PL is seen (by fans and pundits alike) as either having had most of a decade of strong performance in the Football League (with a minimum of 2-3 seasons of overperformance in the Championship) or 3-4 seasons minimum managing in a top-10 league in Europe. Bradley had neither of these things. That's just the way it is. Does that mean he is incapable of managing at that level? No, but he'll have to prove himself first. Same as all American managers will, and I guarantee you that we won't be waiting a generation for it to happen again. I'd bet 8 years, possibly under 5 if the right man came along.

I appreciate your response, but any manager brought to a club mid-season using a sacked manager's players cannot be expected to shine until given a chance to mold the club. The flood of goals given up didn't go unnoticed as Bradley's main target was a CB first and CM second. Hell, any of the big teams give new managers an open purse when they come in because all say they need 4-6 players - and even then it takes a while to get tactics right (look at Jose, Pep, and Klopp).

Swansea may not go down but if they happen to stay up it will only be due to major additions brought in. And if that happens, the lucky manager on the receiving end will achieve something that Bradley was never given the opportunity to do - having players you believe in is just as important for a coach as the tactics employed. Expecting Bradley to succeed at Swansea under the current conditions and time frame is like asking Vieira to take the helm at NYCFC using Kreis' roster (no changes, wingert, Grabavoy, and Alvarez) and expect something more than a dumpster fire.

 

[Falastur]

I appreciate your response, but any manager brought to a club mid-season using a sacked manager's players cannot be expected to shine until given a chance to mold the club. The flood of goals given up didn't go unnoticed as Bradley's main target was a CB first and CM second. Hell, any of the big teams give new managers an open purse when they come in because all say they need 4-6 players - and even then it takes a while to get tactics right (look at Jose, Pep, and Klopp).

Swansea may not go down but if they happen to stay up it will only be due to major additions brought in. And if that happens, the lucky manager on the receiving end will achieve something that Bradley was never given the opportunity to do - having players you believe in is just as important for a coach as the tactics employed. Expecting Bradley to succeed at Swansea under the current conditions and time frame is like asking Vieira to take the helm at NYCFC using Kreis' roster (no changes, wingert, Grabavoy, and Alvarez) and expect something more than a dumpster fire.

I don't doubt that he had no easy job, and that if you're left with another manager's players you can't be expected to shine, but Bradley wasn't shining, he was taking a defence which had conceded two goals a game and turning it into a team which conceded three goals a game. Yes he definitely needed better players and will resent that he wasn't given a chance to get them, but the fact of the matter was that he seemed to be proving that he couldn't get much out of the players he had, and while that would be a case for arguing for more time in many scenarios, the same does not apply to the PL where the price of failure is catastrophic. In such a scenario you have to show that you can at least keep your head above the water in order to get that chance, and Bradley wasn't.

The other part of this, of course, is that Bradley would've had numerous discussions by this point with the owners about his January targets, so they would hardly have been blind to his plans. Sure, the owners are not themselves football players/managers, and there have been many examples down the years of owners thinking they know better and getting it totally wrong (and there will be many further examples in future) but it's likely he would've gotten the extra time if he had sold them a convincing tale on how he could turn the ship around. Dare I say it, but if they sacked him at this stage it does suggest to me that they weren't entirely sure that the players he was targeting, or the way he wanted to use them, was going to be good enough to ensure survival.

 

[typicalcity]

I don't doubt that he had no easy job, and that if you're left with another manager's players you can't be expected to shine, but Bradley wasn't shining, he was taking a defence which had conceded two goals a game and turning it into a team which conceded three goals a game. Yes he definitely needed better players and will resent that he wasn't given a chance to get them, but the fact of the matter was that he seemed to be proving that he couldn't get much out of the players he had, and while that would be a case for arguing for more time in many scenarios, the same does not apply to the PL where the price of failure is catastrophic. In such a scenario you have to show that you can at least keep your head above the water in order to get that chance, and Bradley wasn't.

The other part of this, of course, is that Bradley would've had numerous discussions by this point with the owners about his January targets, so they would hardly have been blind to his plans. Sure, the owners are not themselves football players/managers, and there have been many examples down the years of owners thinking they know better and getting it totally wrong (and there will be many further examples in future) but it's likely he would've gotten the extra time if he had sold them a convincing tale on how he could turn the ship around. Dare I say it, but if they sacked him at this stage it does suggest to me that they weren't entirely sure that the players he was targeting, or the way he wanted to use them, was going to be good enough to ensure survival.

To summarise they got shut as he was probably going to buy a load of crap players in January.
The penny has finally dropped with *family guy* giggs that he won't get the utd job anytime soon and Swansea for 6 months is the best he can hope for in his managerial career.
The Swansea board will think this is a great appointment totally forgetting how the fans boo ed him for his refusal to play for Wales in friendly games.
Might just see the season out before taking them down,bound to end in tears .
And much laughter from fans of other clubs

 

[Keith Putnam]

a load of crap players in January

You mean any player willing to join an at-best mid-table side with no hope of Europe and an almost definite season in the Championship next year? Yeah, I'm sure Bradley was just swimming in excellent choices of players to buy, and not considering any of them.

 

[Gotham Gator]

To summarise they got shut as he was probably going to buy a load of crap players in January.
The penny has finally dropped with *family guy* giggs that he won't get the utd job anytime soon and Swansea for 6 months is the best he can hope for in his managerial career.
The Swansea board will think this is a great appointment totally forgetting how the fans boo ed him for his refusal to play for Wales in friendly games.
Might just see the season out before taking them down,bound to end in tears .
And much laughter from fans of other clubs

You are being a fucking xenophobic dickhead. You have no idea what players he would have brought in. Criticizing his language is simply ridiculous.

Bradley did not perform as well as he should have, but it was a terribly difficult situation, and he never had a chance to fix what was really wrong with the team, which was/is the roster.

And while criticism of his tactics and results are fine, there is plenty in how the British reacted to him that is nothing other than xenophobic. Period. And this includes criticism of his occasional use of American terminology - criticism that is all form and no substance.

And was he a suitable candidate for the job? Of course. This isn't Chelsea or one of the Manchesters. This is a relegation bound team that has historically spent a lot more time in the lower divisions than at the top. For a coach that led an also ran to the Europa League and came within one goal of leading a second tier French team to within one goal of promotion to Ligue 1 - and then had that team in the promotion zone when he left... well, the next logical step is a lower level team in one of the top European leagues.

Let's also be clear that there are plenty of EPL retreads that have had managerial performances every bit as frustrating as Bradley's, only to get hired time and time again. It will be interesting to see if he is afforded the same opportunity. Given the outrageous reaction of many across the pond, I have to doubt it.

 

[mgarbowski]

Let's also be clear that there are plenty of EPL retreads that have had managerial performances every bit as frustrating as Bradley's, only to get hired time and time again. It will be interesting to see if he is afforded the same opportunity. Given the outrageous reaction of many across the pond, I have to doubt it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/813850432586059776

 

[Ulrich]

https://twitter.com/x/status/813850432586059776

Honestly, I can't name a single British manager that deserves a managerial position in England's top flight if we're using the same variables to grade them that Bradley was subjected to. There are probably plenty of managers in the Championship that deserve a shot, but it won't happen while the old boys club keeps regurgitating retread guys like Pardew and Big Sam and Mark Hughes. Moyes, yes, but even he has a ceiling of being average/mid-table.

 

[Falastur]

Honestly, I can't name a single British manager that deserves a managerial position in England's top flight if we're using the same variables to grade them that Bradley was subjected to. There are probably plenty of managers in the Championship that deserve a shot, but it won't happen while the old boys club keeps regurgitating retread guys like Pardew and Big Sam and Mark Hughes. Moyes, yes, but even he has a ceiling of being average/mid-table.

Eddie Howe.

Otherwise, you're entirely correct. That said - going back to my original point - British managers are truly awful, tactically prehistoric, ignorant morons who don't deserve anything they've ever touched, so it's not a hard sell.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Honestly, I can't name a single British manager that deserves a managerial position in England's top flight if we're using the same variables to grade them that Bradley was subjected to. There are probably plenty of managers in the Championship that deserve a shot, but it won't happen while the old boys club keeps regurgitating retread guys like Pardew and Big Sam and Mark Hughes. Moyes, yes, but even he has a ceiling of being average/mid-table.

I would argue Big Sam deserves the job because he is after all relegation specialist. Pardew should never get another work in England. Maybe Scotland.

Bradley back to MLS I assume.

 

[Ulrich]

I would argue Big Sam deserves the job because he is after all relegation specialist. Pardew should never get another work in England. Maybe Scotland.

Bradley back to MLS I assume.

Big Sam deserves jail.

 

[typicalcity]

You mean any player willing to join an at-best mid-table side with no hope of Europe and an almost definite season in the Championship next year? Yeah, I'm sure Bradley was just swimming in excellent choices of players to buy, and not considering any of them.

Pretty much all players are mercenary's mate if you offer them enough they will go to Swansea .look at Oscar in the prime of his career retiring to China.why would any player go to Celtic for football reasons ?.
The prem is awash with money if the owners put the money in the players would come

 

[typicalcity]

Big Sam deserves jail.

There's far worse than fat Sam ,English football is corrupt from top to bottom

 

[typicalcity]

Honestly, I can't name a single British manager that deserves a managerial position in England's top flight if we're using the same variables to grade them that Bradley was subjected to. There are probably plenty of managers in the Championship that deserve a shot, but it won't happen while the old boys club keeps regurgitating retread guys like Pardew and Big Sam and Mark Hughes. Moyes, yes, but even he has a ceiling of being average/mid-table.

All those managers won't win .anything but the important thing is they usually won't take a team down which is just as important to the owners with the money involved most clubs are happy to stay in the division and not even try to win any trophies

 

[JayH]

Bradley back to MLS I assume.

Hopefully he doesn't come back here talking about fixtures, clean sheets and away matches.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Hopefully he doesn't come back here talking about fixtures, clean sheets and away matches.

LOL.

 

[typicalcity]

You are being a fucking xenophobic dickhead. You have no idea what players he would have brought in. Criticizing his language is simply ridiculous.

Bradley did not perform as well as he should have, but it was a terribly difficult situation, and he never had a chance to fix what was really wrong with the team, which was/is the roster.

And while criticism of his tactics and results are fine, there is plenty in how the British reacted to him that is nothing other than xenophobic. Period. And this includes criticism of his occasional use of American terminology - criticism that is all form and no substance.

And was he a suitable candidate for the job? Of course. This isn't Chelsea or one of the Manchesters. This is a relegation bound team that has historically spent a lot more time in the lower divisions than at the top. For a coach that led an also ran to the Europa League and came within one goal of leading a second tier French team to within one goal of promotion to Ligue 1 - and then had that team in the promotion zone when he left... well, the next logical step is a lower level team in one of the top European leagues.

Let's also be clear that there are plenty of EPL retreads that have had managerial performances every bit as frustrating as Bradley's, only to get hired time and time again. It will be interesting to see if he is afforded the same opportunity. Given the outrageous reaction of many across the pond, I have to doubt it.[/QUO

 

[typicalcity]

Hopefully he doesn't come back here talking about fixtures, clean sheets and away matches.

Wouldn't have thought he'd go back anywhere talking about clean sheets,the only ones he's seen were in the holiday inn

 

[typicalcity]

You are being a fucking xenophobic dickhead. You have no idea what players he would have brought in. Criticizing his language is simply ridiculous.

Bradley did not perform as well as he should have, but it was a terribly difficult situation, and he never had a chance to fix what was really wrong with the team, which was/is the roster.

And while criticism of his tactics and results are fine, there is plenty in how the British reacted to him that is nothing other than xenophobic. Period. And this includes criticism of his occasional use of American terminology - criticism that is all form and no substance.

And was he a suitable candidate for the job? Of course. This isn't Chelsea or one of the Manchesters. This is a relegation bound team that has historically spent a lot more time in the lower divisions than at the top. For a coach that led an also ran to the Europa League and came within one goal of leading a second tier French team to within one goal of promotion to Ligue 1 - and then had that team in the promotion zone when he left... well, the next logical step is a lower level team in one of the top European leagues.

Let's also be clear that there are plenty of EPL retreads that have had managerial performances every bit as frustrating as Bradley's, only to get hired time and time again. It will be interesting to see if he is afforded the same opportunity. Given the outrageous reaction of many across the pond, I have to doubt it.

Xenophobic dickhead that's not very nice mate , chill your beans mate or wind your neck in ,in English :+)