Toronto Away Postmatch

[Seven]

Makes you wonder how much the Chicago game took out of Villa. Maybe it's just coincidence, everyone has a off game, but I am pretty sure he also missed a day of practice this week, as he didn't show up on any of the photos or Inside Training video that was posted.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

That approach might make sense if we were dealing with large data sets and black boxes.

Its not even worth trying to make the argument anymore. There's plenty of people on this forum that are more content to blame the guy who had a good game than the guys who had a bad game because it must be his fault they didn't play well.

 

[Angela Miller]

Its not even worth trying to make the argument anymore. There's plenty of people on this forum that are more content to blame the guy who had a good game than the guys who had a bad game because it must be his fault they didn't play well.

Hey now NOBODY in this country LOVES THIS MAN MORE THAT I DO !! But this shit of him moving behind the wall so Gio could score is Fkd up !! I'm the type of person who can admit when I'm wrong . ANDREA needs to step up to this Shit and Address it ! NYCFC has afforded him this life he loves so much for this team and the city that's the least he could do !!!

 

[Seven]

Its not even worth trying to make the argument anymore. There's plenty of people on this forum that are more content to blame the guy who had a good game than the guys who had a bad game because it must be his fault they didn't play well.

Can it be both?

I don't think Pirlo had a bad game, but I do think he negatively affects how the team plays as a whole.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

Can it be both?

I don't think Pirlo had a bad game, but I do think he negatively affects how the team plays as a whole.

sure it can be both but Pirlo seems to be the only thing anyone wants to talk about. I legit made the point that we had 2 defenders who didnt complete a single tackle the entire game and was told that they still played better than Pirlo and that Pirlo hurt us more than those defenders did.

 

[SoupInNYC]

sure it can be both but Pirlo seems to be the only thing anyone wants to talk about. I legit made the point that we had 2 defenders who didnt complete a single tackle the entire game and was told that they still played better than Pirlo and that Pirlo hurt us more than those defenders did.

But do defenders (especially CBs) really rack up many tackles per game? That's a stat that lends itself more towards midfielders and even forwards. Clearances is probably more appropriate.

To put this in context, Maxime Chanot, who is our best defender, and many have argued should have been considered for the all-star game, only averages 1.3 tackles per game, and only attempts per game (https://www.whoscored.com/Players/68875/History/Maxime-Chanot).

Looking back at a couple of our previous games, Callens had 0 against Chicago, Chanot and Callens both had 0 against Minnesota and I don't think they had bad performances there.

Back to your main point, I already said that I didn't think Pirlo played all that bad. But I definitely didn't think Brillant had a bad game. I thought he did his job fairly well throughout the game and definitely didn't do anything that led to any goals (unless he fouled before the FK, I honestly cannot remember what foul that was). Were there any tackles that he should have made that he didn't?

 

[Joseph Bianco]

But do defenders (especially CBs) really rack up many tackles per game? That's a stat that lends itself more towards midfielders and even forwards. Clearances is probably more appropriate.

To put this in context, Maxime Chanot, who is our best defender, and many have argued should have been considered for the all-star game, only averages 1.3 tackles per game, and only attempts per game (https://www.whoscored.com/Players/68875/History/Maxime-Chanot).

Looking back at a couple of our previous games, Callens had 0 against Chicago, Chanot and Callens both had 0 against Minnesota and I don't think they had bad performances there.

Back to your main point, I already said that I didn't think Pirlo played all that bad. But I definitely didn't think Brillant had a bad game. I thought he did his job fairly well throughout the game and definitely didn't do anything that led to any goals (unless he fouled before the FK, I honestly cannot remember what foul that was). Were there any tackles that he should have made that he didn't?

yes a midfielder would have more tackles than a defender, but if you dont have any tackles it means you never stepped up to the play and constantly played collapsing. Its kind of ironic for accepting this but blaming pirlo for not putting more pressure.

 

[mgarbowski]

sure it can be both but Pirlo seems to be the only thing anyone wants to talk about. I legit made the point that we had 2 defenders who didnt complete a single tackle the entire game and was told that they still played better than Pirlo and that Pirlo hurt us more than those defenders did.

Here's the thing, which is so obvious that I wonder if certain Pirlo defenders are actually this clueless or wilfully obtuse.

We are allowed but 3 DPs on the team. Each uses up $480,625 of the teams' $3,845,000 cap. Which means Pirlo represents 33% of an extremel;y limited asset and $12.5% of the team's also precious cap space. For this, at his best, he does not fit well on the team.

Who are you comparing him to?

Ben Sweat was supposed to be a backup who almost never plays and makes $65k. Look, if you want to make the point that Pirlo is better than Ben Sweat, have at it. What the hell is the point. It's actually pretty embarrassing to have that as your defense: Pirlo is not as bad as a MLS also-ran making $65k.

As for Brillant, with guaranteed comp of almost $320k, he's overpaid. Which has not been a contentious topic on the forum at all. The main difference between he and Pirlo is the forum is not filled with a bunch of blindly loyal Belgian league fans who can't admit he isn't working here.

Comparing Pirlo to our other 3 DPs, he has arguably added the least value, which is remarkable considering he has been roster available roughly 4 times as much as Maxi and twice as much as Lampard. He's been a DNP-coach's decision repeatedly this year. That's a fiasco for a DP slot. For his salary, Sweat is holding his weight. Dollar for dollar, and DP slot for DP slot, Brillant is nowhere near the albatross that Pirlo is. Nor are TMac, RJ or even Lopez. Given the league salary and roster rules, Pirlo is the giant sucking black hole on our roster. No contest. Not even close.

But yay, he had one game with more tackles than two players who use up less combined cap space and infinitely fewer proportional DP slots. Let's stop talking about him so the Serie A fans won't feel bad.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

Here's the thing, which is so obvious that I wonder if certain Pirlo defenders are actually this clueless or wilfully obtuse.

We are allowed but 3 DPs on the team. Each uses up $480,625 of the teams' $3,845,000 cap. Which means Pirlo represents 33% of an extremel;y limited asset and $12.5% of the team's also precious cap space. For this, at his best, he does not fit well on the team.

Who are you comparing him to?

Ben Sweat was supposed to be a backup who almost never plays and makes $65k. Look, if you want to make the point that Pirlo is better than Ben Sweat, have at it. What the hell is the point. It's actually pretty embarrassing to have that as your defense: Pirlo is not as bad as a MLS also-ran making $65k.

As for Brillant, with guaranteed comp of almost $320k, he's overpaid. Which has not been a contentious topic on the forum at all. The main difference between he and Pirlo is the forum is not filled with a bunch of blindly loyal Belgian league fans who can't admit he isn't working here.

Comparing Pirlo to our other 3 DPs, he has arguably added the least value, which is remarkable considering he has been roster available roughly 4 times as much as Maxi and twice as much as Lampard. He's been a DNP-coach's decision repeatedly this year. That's a fiasco for a DP slot. For his salary, Sweat is holding his weight. Dollar for dollar, and DP slot for DP slot, Brillant is nowhere near the albatross that Pirlo is. Nor are TMac, RJ or even Lopez. Given the league salary and roster rules, Pirlo is the giant sucking black hole on our roster. No contest. Not even close.

But yay, he had one game with more tackles than two players who use up less combined cap space and infinitely fewer proportional DP slots. Let's stop talking about him so the Serie A fans won't feel bad.

youre making an argument ive never fought anyone on. His value on our team is not worth the money we pay him, for what were getting out of him on the field (whether i believe that's his fault or not). His money in jersey and ticket sales was probably worth it for the club though. Regardless, we have him on our team and his salary is what it is. But, to blame him for losses when he has a good game to me is silly. Again, he doesnt make the lineups or set the tactics. If we play better as a team without him that's on Vieira not on Pirlo.

 

[SoupInNYC]

yes a midfielder would have more tackles than a defender, but if you dont have any tackles it means you never stepped up to the play and constantly played collapsing. Its kind of ironic for accepting this but blaming pirlo for not putting more pressure.

I'm not certain that if a CB has 0 tackles it means they never stepped up to the play and collapsed. Did Callens do so against Chicago when he had 0? Did both Chanot and Callens do so against Minnesota when we let up one flukish goal (thanks to Johansen) but dominated the whole match? Chanot and Callens also only combined for 2 total when we shut out NJRB.

I'll again repeat that I thought Pirlo played well. But there is one particular play where I thought his effort to pressure the ball was not great. Its not the reason that goal was scored, but it didn't help. I don't remember any specific plays where Brillant did not do that (that said, there very well may be an example that I do not recall).

I do remember a play in the first half that did not lead to a goal, where TFC was on a counter and everyone on the team was frantically tracking back except Sweat who was jogging (not even breaking a Sweat ). I actually meant to bring this one up earlier, probably happened within the first 20' and pissed me right off.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

I'm not certain that if a CB has 0 tackles it means they never stepped up to the play and collapsed. Did Callens do so against Chicago when he had 0? Did both Chanot and Callens do so against Minnesota when we let up one flukish goal (thanks to Johansen) but dominated the whole match? Chanot and Callens also only combined for 2 total when we shut out NJRB.

I'll again repeat that I thought Pirlo played well. But there is one particular play where I thought his effort to pressure the ball was not great. Its not the reason that goal was scored, but it didn't help. I don't remember any specific plays where Brillant did not do that (that said, there very well may be an example that I do not recall).

I do remember a play in the first half that did not lead to a goal, where TFC was on a counter and everyone on the team was frantically tracking back except Sweat who was jogging (not even breaking a Sweat ). I actually meant to bring this one up earlier, probably happened within the first 20' and pissed me right off.

i guess jumping off this i thought brillant was one of our better defenders but didnt do anything impressive. Sweat and white i thought were horrible and White actually had 4 tackles. Kind of why i said i dont like to only rely on stats. Again, i thought you had a good assessment of the game and i wasnt arguing with you at all. Ive actually agreed with most of what youve said in this thread.

 

[Marito]

Here's the thing, which is so obvious that I wonder if certain Pirlo defenders are actually this clueless or wilfully obtuse.

We are allowed but 3 DPs on the team. Each uses up $480,625 of the teams' $3,845,000 cap. Which means Pirlo represents 33% of an extremel;y limited asset and $12.5% of the team's also precious cap space. For this, at his best, he does not fit well on the team.

Who are you comparing him to?

Ben Sweat was supposed to be a backup who almost never plays and makes $65k. Look, if you want to make the point that Pirlo is better than Ben Sweat, have at it. What the hell is the point. It's actually pretty embarrassing to have that as your defense: Pirlo is not as bad as a MLS also-ran making $65k.

As for Brillant, with guaranteed comp of almost $320k, he's overpaid. Which has not been a contentious topic on the forum at all. The main difference between he and Pirlo is the forum is not filled with a bunch of blindly loyal Belgian league fans who can't admit he isn't working here.

Comparing Pirlo to our other 3 DPs, he has arguably added the least value, which is remarkable considering he has been roster available roughly 4 times as much as Maxi and twice as much as Lampard. He's been a DNP-coach's decision repeatedly this year. That's a fiasco for a DP slot. For his salary, Sweat is holding his weight. Dollar for dollar, and DP slot for DP slot, Brillant is nowhere near the albatross that Pirlo is. Nor are TMac, RJ or even Lopez. Given the league salary and roster rules, Pirlo is the giant sucking black hole on our roster. No contest. Not even close.

But yay, he had one game with more tackles than two players who use up less combined cap space and infinitely fewer proportional DP slots. Let's stop talking about him so the Serie A fans won't feel bad.

The sad truth is that Pirlo, in his short career with NYCFC, has gone from disappointing to very disappointing to unrecognizable in the span of 2 years. That's irrefutable. His baffling free kicks, his ineffectual corner kicks, etc. It's puzzling but it isn't difficult to see. The rest is specious argument. Even as a TAM/GAM player he would have been a disappointment. I don't discount the possibility that Joseph Bianco will say Pirlo in a NYCFC shirt has been everything he hoped for and more, but I will never understand it. And it is not all due to poor fit, because that has nothing to do with a free kick specialist being unable to hit proper free kicks once and again, and again.

 

[gbservis]

Here's the thing, which is so obvious that I wonder if certain Pirlo defenders are actually this clueless or wilfully obtuse.

We are allowed but 3 DPs on the team. Each uses up $480,625 of the teams' $3,845,000 cap. Which means Pirlo represents 33% of an extremel;y limited asset and $12.5% of the team's also precious cap space. For this, at his best, he does not fit well on the team.

Who are you comparing him to?

Ben Sweat was supposed to be a backup who almost never plays and makes $65k. Look, if you want to make the point that Pirlo is better than Ben Sweat, have at it. What the hell is the point. It's actually pretty embarrassing to have that as your defense: Pirlo is not as bad as a MLS also-ran making $65k.

As for Brillant, with guaranteed comp of almost $320k, he's overpaid. Which has not been a contentious topic on the forum at all. The main difference between he and Pirlo is the forum is not filled with a bunch of blindly loyal Belgian league fans who can't admit he isn't working here.

Comparing Pirlo to our other 3 DPs, he has arguably added the least value, which is remarkable considering he has been roster available roughly 4 times as much as Maxi and twice as much as Lampard. He's been a DNP-coach's decision repeatedly this year. That's a fiasco for a DP slot. For his salary, Sweat is holding his weight. Dollar for dollar, and DP slot for DP slot, Brillant is nowhere near the albatross that Pirlo is. Nor are TMac, RJ or even Lopez. Given the league salary and roster rules, Pirlo is the giant sucking black hole on our roster. No contest. Not even close.

But yay, he had one game with more tackles than two players who use up less combined cap space and infinitely fewer proportional DP slots. Let's stop talking about him so the Serie A fans won't feel bad.

I think two arguments are being muddled.

1.) Is Pirlo a waste of a DP spot that has fit poorly with our current system and if we could have a do over would we have been better off with a different DP that was a better fit for the team and the league?

2.) Within our current roster constraints including call ups, injuries, red cards, for some games is Pirlo the best option for the 3rd midfield spot and when he's slotted into that spot as a far less than ideal choice but better than the other bad options should be blamed for the poor out come?

With regards to question 1 which the majority of your post addresses I'm not sure what Pirlo "defenders" you're debating with at this point. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone defending the position that Pirlo being on the roster as a DP is a good thing.

The vast majority of the Pirlo "defenders" that I have seen post at this point are arguing with regards to item 2. When the choice is between TMac, Lopez or Pirlo in the 3rd midfield spot some choose Pirlo. This has nothing to do with him being a DP or his value. To me things are getting skewed because the two camps are not even talking about the same thing. Group 1 (the Pirlo haters) wants to grumble about Pirlo because they are salty about him being on the roster in a DP spot. That unhappiness translates into constant grumbling about his on field perfromance as support for their position that he's a shitty DP. Group 2 (pro Pirlo) then takes the misappropriated nit picking of Pirlos game day performance as an attack on their support for him starting and argues back with individual game day stats to support their position not on his status as a DP but for the idea that he was no worse of an option for that particular game. Then repeat over and over and over.

Interestingly we all did the same thing with Mix and many of those most vocal in this debate were debating/supporting the complete opposite side when it came to Mix as opposed to Pirlo:

 

[Joseph Bianco]

I think two arguments are being muddled.

1.) Is Pirlo a waste of a DP spot that has fit poorly with our current system and if we could have a do over would we have been better off with a different DP that was a better fit for the team and the league?

2.) Within our current roster constraints including call ups, injuries, red cards, for some games is Pirlo the best option for the 3rd midfield spot and when he's slotted into that spot as a far less than ideal choice but better than the other bad options should be blamed for the poor out come?

With regards to question 1 which the majority of your post addresses I'm not sure what Pirlo "defenders" you're debating with at this point. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone defending the position that Pirlo being on the roster as a DP is a good thing.

The vast majority of the Pirlo "defenders" that I have seen post at this point are arguing with regards to item 2. When the choice is between TMac, Lopez or Pirlo in the 3rd midfield spot some choose Pirlo. This has nothing to do with him being a DP or his value. To me things are getting skewed because the two camps are not even talking about the same thing. Group 1 (the Pirlo haters) wants to grumble about Pirlo because they are salty about him being on the roster in a DP spot. That unhappiness translates into constant grumbling about his on field perfromance as support for their position that he's a shitty DP. Group 2 (pro Pirlo) then takes the misappropriated nit picking of Pirlos game day performance as an attack on their support for him starting and argues back with individual game day stats to support their position not on his status as a DP but for the idea that he was no worse of an option for that particular game. Then repeat over and over and over.

Interestingly we all did the same thing with Mix and many of those most vocal in this debate were debating/supporting the complete opposite side when it came to Mix as opposed to Pirlo:

i think you just nailed it on the head. Hes already taking up a DP spot hes already got his salary im past that part. Is he a perfect fit id say no, was he worth his salary, maybe, he brought in a shit ton of ticket sales and theres people who still go to games just to see him. But im not gonna shit on a good performance because someone else may have fit better.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

I think two arguments are being muddled.

1.) Is Pirlo a waste of a DP spot that has fit poorly with our current system and if we could have a do over would we have been better off with a different DP that was a better fit for the team and the league?

2.) Within our current roster constraints including call ups, injuries, red cards, for some games is Pirlo the best option for the 3rd midfield spot and when he's slotted into that spot as a far less than ideal choice but better than the other bad options should be blamed for the poor out come?

With regards to question 1 which the majority of your post addresses I'm not sure what Pirlo "defenders" you're debating with at this point. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone defending the position that Pirlo being on the roster as a DP is a good thing.

The vast majority of the Pirlo "defenders" that I have seen post at this point are arguing with regards to item 2. When the choice is between TMac, Lopez or Pirlo in the 3rd midfield spot some choose Pirlo. This has nothing to do with him being a DP or his value. To me things are getting skewed because the two camps are not even talking about the same thing. Group 1 (the Pirlo haters) wants to grumble about Pirlo because they are salty about him being on the roster in a DP spot. That unhappiness translates into constant grumbling about his on field perfromance as support for their position that he's a shitty DP. Group 2 (pro Pirlo) then takes the misappropriated nit picking of Pirlos game day performance as an attack on their support for him starting and argues back with individual game day stats to support their position not on his status as a DP but for the idea that he was no worse of an option for that particular game. Then repeat over and over and over.

Interestingly we all did the same thing with Mix and many of those most vocal in this debate were debating/supporting the complete opposite side when it came to Mix as opposed to Pirlo:

Group 2 are all Italians to whom any Pirlo critique is akin to trashing their Grandmother's gravy.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

Group 2 are all Italians to whom any Pirlo critique is akin to trashing their Grandmother's gravy.

thats actually not true at all. i watch serie A and shit on italian players all the time. I judge a player by their performance.

ETA: if you go back in this thread youll see me shitting on Pirlo for hiding behind the wall. Ive said in the past that i prefer Villa to take Free Kicks on goal. The pirlo haters just wanna see what they wanna see.

Example: Pirlo completely getting shit on for poor marking on Giovinco. But yet nobody talking about Maxi missing a clear goal scoring chance and doing his best Roberto Baggio impression on a PK. Now i love maxi, but if that was Pirlo wed never hear the end of it.

 

[Davo15]

• We should all be able to acknowledge that Pirlo is extremely talented but a poor fit for our team and arguably a poor fit for the league overall. Some people are out on the extreme blaming him for all our ills but on the other hand we have people with Azurri tinted glasses on making at times ridiculous claims in his defense IE; the taking a shot at Villa earlier in the post. Villa is the best player in the history of our short club , Pirlo decidedly is not. Villa is allowed an occasional bad game by the majority because he's built up credit with the large number of amazing performances he's put in.

 

[mgarbowski]

Nothing is getting improperly conflated. In a league like MLS it is never not about cap space and DP slots.

Also, good game?

• He hid from a free kick.
• He was beat on the winning goal.
• He was credited by some for having his own free kick deflected, because it was arguably on target. That's a plus now? That a free kick specialist hit it low enough to be deflected so at least it wasn't going over the crossbar?
• He was credited for making passes that were good on some sort Platonic level that even his proponents admit led to nothing useful, because he does not fit this team.
• He did yeoman's work on defense.

Good is doing things that help NYCFC win. Good is doing things that play to the strengths of your teammates.

 

[SanBartG]

Group 2 are all Italians to whom any Pirlo critique is akin to trashing their Grandmother's gravy.

Hey! Nonna's gravy is sacrosanct! Paeson' pride aside, gbservis is exactly right. I have often been critical of Pirlo and completely agree that is way too expensive for the value added. But at the same time, hating on him has practically become a sport in this forum to the point of some being just plain stubborn for its own sake.

Now excuse me... nonna's calling me to the table.

 

[Christopher Jee]

Group 2 are all Italians to whom any Pirlo critique is akin to trashing their Grandmother's gravy.

Nope, I'm Australian and Asian.

Throw your most garish stereotypes at that.