I don't. Every club that has won a major league has bought there way to it. My problem as u put it is with not giving smaller clubs a chance to do it. For instance Aston Villa a club with real history and potential are up for sale but FFP rules imposed by elitist are preventing a purchase. I cannot see the difference between villas problem and the mls model. Oh and I am not a labour voting communist. I am a Tory that believes in fair play
Promotion & Relegation
- Thread starter MrE
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I don't. Every club that has won a major league has bought there way to it. My problem as u put it is with not giving smaller clubs a chance to do it. For instance Aston Villa a club with real history and potential are up for sale but FFP rules imposed by elitist are preventing a purchase. I cannot see the difference between villas problem and the mls model. Oh and I am not a labour voting communist. I am a Tory that believes in fair play
Pro Rel might work here if football wasn't the 5th(?) team sport in the country in terms of revenue.
I got to be honest for a moment:
I don't understand how pro/rel fans have the audacity to constantly say "pro/rel makes leagues more competitive!"
Do you have eyeballs? European leagues are the furthest thing from competitive!
EPL title hasn't left Manchester for the last decade. And it ain't looking likely to happen this year either.
Spanish title only leaves the Barca-Real duopoly but once a decade. Who thinks Barca or Real won't win it again this year?
France is just PSG now. Maybe Monaco will challenge a bit but no one else matters.
Germany is Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund.
I mean who in their right mind would dare call these competitive leagues? WHO?
To my mind, what DC United is doing this year is the sign of a truly competitive league. They only won 3 games last year and now they're challenging for the top of the table. That's competition that you simply won't see in Europe.
People get all excited that little Atletico won La Liga-- as though it were some kind of miracle-- they're historically the third biggest club in Spain! When your third biggest club is essentially Rocky Balboa when they win the title, that's how you know you have a huuuuge problem.
I don't understand how pro/rel fans have the audacity to constantly say "pro/rel makes leagues more competitive!"
Do you have eyeballs? European leagues are the furthest thing from competitive!
EPL title hasn't left Manchester for the last decade. And it ain't looking likely to happen this year either.
Spanish title only leaves the Barca-Real duopoly but once a decade. Who thinks Barca or Real won't win it again this year?
France is just PSG now. Maybe Monaco will challenge a bit but no one else matters.
Germany is Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund.
I mean who in their right mind would dare call these competitive leagues? WHO?
To my mind, what DC United is doing this year is the sign of a truly competitive league. They only won 3 games last year and now they're challenging for the top of the table. That's competition that you simply won't see in Europe.
People get all excited that little Atletico won La Liga-- as though it were some kind of miracle-- they're historically the third biggest club in Spain! When your third biggest club is essentially Rocky Balboa when they win the title, that's how you know you have a huuuuge problem.
I don;t see how pro/rel makes them noncompetitive. It seems to me that its the wildly different spending that makes those leagues so stratified.
I think everyone arguing against pro/rel is talking about how hard it would be to institute in US, while MrE is talking about the benefits to excitement, etc. It is two different arguments. Yes it would be exciting, no it would not work in MLS model.
There, all friends again.
I think everyone arguing against pro/rel is talking about how hard it would be to institute in US, while MrE is talking about the benefits to excitement, etc. It is two different arguments. Yes it would be exciting, no it would not work in MLS model.
There, all friends again.
Promotion & relegation is not going to happen in the US for the foreseeable future, because as stated you pay to get into the league so the league is where you must stay.
Is it better off for it? Makes no difference because to where and from would clubs go. The MLS is a closed system so it is all rather moot.
However, is football in general better off with it? Of course. It's an awful feeling as a fan, and can in extreme circumstances destroy a club entirely, but it is what it is and everyone must live with it; one cannot truly appreciate the highs without experiencing the lows.
Is it better off for it? Makes no difference because to where and from would clubs go. The MLS is a closed system so it is all rather moot.
However, is football in general better off with it? Of course. It's an awful feeling as a fan, and can in extreme circumstances destroy a club entirely, but it is what it is and everyone must live with it; one cannot truly appreciate the highs without experiencing the lows.
Good points and I realize the EPL title has stopped off a few other places in the last decade but 05 and 06 are so long ago, it really was a different era. 2010 was an outlier like la liga this year. Its the Manchester Premier League now.
I was being generous with the Bundesliga, too.
Maybe it's true what they say about Americans only liking a winner because to me, things like the FA cup and Europa League, are non-starters. Trinkets. I get that in the unusual European caste system leagues maybe the trinkets would hold great value as prizes to certain clubs but that's not how it should be...
That is the thing about fandom....
During the bad times winning a goal kick is cause for celebration. Winning a game is time for a party.
As blue wolf says the lows really do have to be experienced before a high can be appreciated.
If FFP had existed in Europe a decade ago then MCFC would still be a selling club, and NYCFC would not exist (under its current guise)
If it had existed 60 years ago nor would Man United, and Blackpool and Burnley would be at the pinnacle of soccer in the English Leagues.
Not giving owners the reason to invest leaves the lower leagues in a situation where they will wither and die.
Promotion / Relegation enables a re circulation of wealth, and gives the smaller clubs at least a chance to compete.
The MLS / American sport ideal, currently prohibits the recirculation of wealth (IMO , with little knowledge of the big picture).
It is not the clubs fault, nor that of the players. It is the fault of the system, a system which now will not work due to its infrastructure.
To the outside world, America is trying to build a system from top to bottom.
Probably the reason for this is the appetite for success that the nation has. The non tolerance of failure that the nation has in its psych.
But what about growth, where is that coming from. You have as more people in your nation than Britain, Germany and Spain combined.
America has a market, America has more rich people to sell to than any other nation on Earth. Surely investors can be found to develop the leagues in the Country.
Sorry Guys on this one, just like the "no draw" system America has applied in the past, I think American Soccer has made the wrong call.
I understand the immediate thinking, I am not sure that enough has gone into the long term.
T
True Blue
Guest
MrE, there is more than one road to success. The pro/rel system works and the American system may work too. Only time will tell. One thing you can be sure of, is with MLS Clubs shelling out $100,000,000 each to participate in the league, it will not go down without one hell of a fight. As for me, I have never participated in any game of any sport where my goal was a tie. Nor have I ever been satisfied with a tie. Wins are satisfying and losses you learn from.
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Nor have I. The goal is always a win, the outcome can be a tie.
Ties or draws can be some of the most competitive and entertaining games.
I don't think Americans necessarily hate draws, I think it was the 0-0 scoreline that was the problem.
End to end game, two superb goalkeeping performances, 0-0 is the result.
Trouble is goalkeepers don't always get the recognition they deserve. Starting position, Bravery, Angles, pushing players wide of shooting position, marshaling the defence.
It is the goalkeepers objective at the start of every game not to concede.
Outfield players are often pilloried for a miss, when in fact it was a great piece of keeping that kept the score down.
I know I am probably the minority here, its not quite as drastic as nil nil draws being a problem here in the UK, but fans don't always like them. Where as I am an ex Keeper, and would rather see two keepers at the top of there game rather than a one sided goal fest.
A draw (with or without goals) is still a result and has always been worthy of a point a piece - why can both sides not be rewarded (although I understand there are occasions when both sides do play for a draw, but this is not the norm)?
Everyone loves a winner, and hates a loser, but the American system has taken this to the nth degree; it has become a 'black and white' system, there is no room for grey. We will find a winner on the day even if it kills us, doesn't matter if that 1pt would have saved a club from relega... And we're back to square one.
The US system of things will change with time to catch up with everyone else on the planet, but time must be given for this to happen (and I do mean "time", as in a lot of it).
Everyone loves a winner, and hates a loser, but the American system has taken this to the nth degree; it has become a 'black and white' system, there is no room for grey. We will find a winner on the day even if it kills us, doesn't matter if that 1pt would have saved a club from relega... And we're back to square one.
The US system of things will change with time to catch up with everyone else on the planet, but time must be given for this to happen (and I do mean "time", as in a lot of it).
I'm late to this thread, but I want to post my idea for compromise that I feel brings some of the positives of pro/reg into the franchise system and suitable for American geography.
My vision is for the MLS, as one league, to expand and reach every market in the US (and Canada), so everyone has access to top level soccer. Let's say 40 teams is enough to do that. The new challenge is how to handle a behemoth league of that size?
The solution is to have the regional conferences become more likely individual leagues, and the MLS morph into more of a centralized oversight office. The first half or more of the season focuses on regional play, with the goal of winning your conference. This fosters rivalries, allows every market to participate in top level soccer, and allows the league to weed out the "2nd tier" teams as the season progresses.
Let's say the 40 teams were split into four 10-team conferences (North, South, Central, and West). Each conference plays 18 intraconference games, two against each opponent, and 15 more against interconference opponents to fill out a 33-game regular season schedule. Using the Sounders as an example, they would play the Galaxy twice each regular season, once at home and once in LA, and they would play NYCFC twice every four years, once at home and once in NYC.
After the first 33 games are played, the top 4 teams from each conference (16 teams) form regionally mixed groups of 4 and play a national group stage. (The equivalent of being "promoted" to the premier league.) The groups play twice against each of their other group members, for a total of 6 games. The first and second place teams from each group (8 teams) then advance to the knockout stage playoffs to decide the cup champion.
In this way, all markets participate in the dream of winning the MLS cup each season, and all MLS teams play pretty much a full regular season of 33 games. The conferences retain character and foster intense regional rivalries. At the same time, the best teams play each other more (in the national group stage), and get a more intense post-season that serves as a mini-"champions" league.
Franchise owners are happy, pro/reg fans are reasonably happy, and fans in every corner of the country have a team and hope every single year.
My vision is for the MLS, as one league, to expand and reach every market in the US (and Canada), so everyone has access to top level soccer. Let's say 40 teams is enough to do that. The new challenge is how to handle a behemoth league of that size?
The solution is to have the regional conferences become more likely individual leagues, and the MLS morph into more of a centralized oversight office. The first half or more of the season focuses on regional play, with the goal of winning your conference. This fosters rivalries, allows every market to participate in top level soccer, and allows the league to weed out the "2nd tier" teams as the season progresses.
Let's say the 40 teams were split into four 10-team conferences (North, South, Central, and West). Each conference plays 18 intraconference games, two against each opponent, and 15 more against interconference opponents to fill out a 33-game regular season schedule. Using the Sounders as an example, they would play the Galaxy twice each regular season, once at home and once in LA, and they would play NYCFC twice every four years, once at home and once in NYC.
After the first 33 games are played, the top 4 teams from each conference (16 teams) form regionally mixed groups of 4 and play a national group stage. (The equivalent of being "promoted" to the premier league.) The groups play twice against each of their other group members, for a total of 6 games. The first and second place teams from each group (8 teams) then advance to the knockout stage playoffs to decide the cup champion.
In this way, all markets participate in the dream of winning the MLS cup each season, and all MLS teams play pretty much a full regular season of 33 games. The conferences retain character and foster intense regional rivalries. At the same time, the best teams play each other more (in the national group stage), and get a more intense post-season that serves as a mini-"champions" league.
Franchise owners are happy, pro/reg fans are reasonably happy, and fans in every corner of the country have a team and hope every single year.
T
True Blue
Guest
It is indeed an interesting idea, though I can't say that most fans of promotion/relegation would realise it is supposed to be a pro/rel system - it just looks like you've added a group stage to the Playoffs. It also leaves the question "what are the other teams supposed to do at the end of the season?", as unlike the current system where the Final is about 3-4 weeks after the end of the league stage, your system surely would take another 2-3 months to complete, which some teams are entirely excluded from?
Curiously, your system reminds me quite a bit of the Apertura/Clausura system in operation in much of Latin America.
Curiously, your system reminds me quite a bit of the Apertura/Clausura system in operation in much of Latin America.
All teams play 33 games in my system, compared to 34 games in today's system.
The group stage and knockout rounds (2 legs) would last 5-6 weeks if you played games twice a week. The NBA playoffs lasted just over 8 weeks in comparison, so there is room to stretch the schedule a bit for more rest.
Grant Wahl@GrantWahl
MLS prez Mark Abbott: Promotion/relegation will "never happen" in MLS.
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