Better them than fascists.
antifa does have some sort of presence in the supporter section in 237. Its only two or three indoviduals, but still. How does everyone feel about this?
Personally i think antifa is a desciable group and should have no spot in any form of american organized sports
Various flags. Not sure whats smaller than 3x5, but things like that so farWhat sort of presence? Did they have some type of identifier or just from crap they were yelling?
They are the same thingBetter them than fascists.
They are the same thing
Balance is important. Would be best if neither existed. But since one does, the other is needed.
Look, that's absurd. It's perfectly reasonable to decry groups who are willing to use violence (though I have a feeling you may not be coming at this from a pacifist bent), but let's examine the threat presented by fascists and anti-fascists.They are the same thing
Look, that's absurd. It's perfectly reasonable to decry groups who are willing to use violence (though I have a feeling you may not be coming at this from a pacifist bent), but let's examine the threat presented by fascists and anti-fascists.
Fascists desire to use violence to rid their society of and/or oppress: certain racial categories, certain sexual orientations, leftist political/economic policies, people of the "wrong" religion, people of the "wrong" national origin, people of certain genders, etc.
Anti-fascists are willing to use violence to rid their society of and/or oppress: fascists.
You're indulging in a false equivalence. It would be like saying the US Military and ISIS are fundamentally the same because they both employ violence to achieve their ends.
I generally attempt to avoid any kind of political discussion here, so I'm going to try to back away from this. But given that the emergence of the extreme right wing *is* a serious problem right now both domestically and abroad, I will leave you with possibly the most important thing you can read about how to recognize and oppose incipient fascism, by Umberto Eco: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
It's long and flowery, but here some bullet points:
• The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers.
• Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.
• Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes.
• Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.
•Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
•To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.
Look, that's absurd. It's perfectly reasonable to decry groups who are willing to use violence (though I have a feeling you may not be coming at this from a pacifist bent), but let's examine the threat presented by fascists and anti-fascists.
Fascists desire to use violence to rid their society of and/or oppress: certain racial categories, certain sexual orientations, leftist political/economic policies, people of the "wrong" religion, people of the "wrong" national origin, people of certain genders, etc.
Anti-fascists are willing to use violence to rid their society of and/or oppress: fascists.
You're indulging in a false equivalence. It would be like saying the US Military and ISIS are fundamentally the same because they both employ violence to achieve their ends.
I generally attempt to avoid any kind of political discussion here, so I'm going to try to back away from this. But given that the emergence of the extreme right wing *is* a serious problem right now both domestically and abroad, I will leave you with possibly the most important thing you can read about how to recognize and oppose incipient fascism, by Umberto Eco: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
It's long and flowery, but here some bullet points:
• The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers.
• Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.
• Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes.
• Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.
•Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
•To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.
I don't really feel like going through an effort to lecture you. The official name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. It is neither a Democracy or a Republic. To call Hitler a socialist is because socialism is the name of his party is laughable.This is so historically inaccurate, I don't even know where to start. Fascism was started by a socialist (Mussolini) who felt it would not succeed without nationalism. Hence he left the socialist party in Italy (while still editor of the largest socialist publication in Italy at the time) to combine his agenda of greater national unification and socialist economics. The leading Socialist in Italy at the time were largely disinterested in Italian nationalism.
The xenophobia, racism, etc was the result of Hitler who exploited fascist economics and nationalism for his own purposes. Hence the Nazi party was the National Socialist party- nothing right wing about it.
Stalin initially supported Italian fascism and then did an about face once prominent fascists started to claim to be more radical than socialists. He started to brand fascists as right wing to stop the flow of socialists to the fascist party.
Bottom line- calling fascism "right wing" is not even remotely accurate particularly in reference to the American right which does NOT support corporatism, state capitalism or xenophobia/ racism or anything else of the kind. Racism/xenophobia, etc among members the right or the left (and it exists on both sides) in this country is more so he result of a person's ignorance rather than their politics. And people on the political right in the US, no matter how much you or I may disagree with much of their agenda, oppose fascism as we do. Fascism and Antifa are both totalitarian, violent sects that hate people which don't belong to their "kind (however they define it)."
And regardless of anyone's politics, I think we can all agree racism/xenophobia, etc is abhorrent and unwelcome in our club.
Now that I have broken my own rule of "no politics" here, I'm prepared to do my penance.
I don't really feel like going through an effort to lecture you. The official name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. It is neither a Democracy or a Republic. To call Hitler a socialist is because socialism is the name of his party is laughable.
This club has a history of fascists infiltrating the supporter section year 1 and continuing at away matches. I applaud anyone that would keep them out of the stadium. SGs need to police their own sections.
That's not really relevant to discussing what fascism means today. You can point to Mussolini and call him a socialist all you want, but the ideology and the policies of Mussolini are totally different than what a neo-Nazi or neo-Fascist believes today. Go tell them that you they believe in the state control of the means of production and that they are a left wing socialist and tell me how that works out for youThe history of it is... well what it is... semantics aside. Bottom line- fascism was an outgrowth of socialism so you can't call it "right wing."
And I support keeping all intolerant violent groups out of the stadium... not just those whose politics I dislike.
It was not and I would hope that you dislike the politics of all intolerant violent groups.
That's not really relevant to discussing what fascism means today. You can point to Mussolini and call him a socialist all you want, but the ideology and the policies of Mussolini are totally different than what a neo-Nazi or neo-Fascist believes today. Go tell them that you they believe in the state control of the means of production and that they are a left wing socialist and tell me how that works out for you
I would also hope you disagree with the politics of all intolerant violent groups