but it is off sides?
once the goalie comes out, he's the last defender. we can argue whether his leg really is beyond the plane of the last defender. that's whether you trust the cameras and photogrammetry, but it's not an outrageous call.
Qatar 2022 - The Shitshow
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once the goalie comes out, he's the last defender. we can argue whether his leg really is beyond the plane of the last defender. that's whether you trust the cameras and photogrammetry, but it's not an outrageous call.
What I saw is a cartoon. But fine, it's not corrupt.
If the purpose of VAR is to find offsides even when nobody on the field put their arm up then VAR is a joke. Even Sean Johnson didn't think that was offsides and the last thing the sport needs is fewer goals because we're calling back shit like this.
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this is essentially what the offsides is based on. not a perfect line by any means, but you get the idea. the line drops down from the keeper's butt (cause i can't see the defender behind him). The actual offsides line was based on the defender behind the keeper, who we can't see in this angle.
it's a very close call. and we can only trust the photogrammetry being done in coordination with the sensor in the ball to indicate the time of contact. definitely not something that would be called without VAR and maybe not even called with regular VAR. but this semi-auto VAR is catching this and we have to live with it. it's not egregiously wrong. just a close call that can be debated like many others.
we'll find out if it's rigged if ecuador drop their 2 goal lead and lose 3-2.
I mean while I agree with you on this point, that's shifting the initial statement which was about qatar rigging, which is completely different from the VAR doing VAR things discussion that has been happening across every league in every confederation.
Is this suppose to convince me that the keeper didn't touch it?
And again, fine, let's assume this was "correct." That's a stupid VAR implementation. Nobody thought that was offside. VAR as implemented is a joke and disgrace, and this was completely predictable 5 years ago.
"I like getting the correct call." Fuck you Stu Holden. You like waiting 10 minutes to find out a cartoon says a goal does not count based on evidence not even the opposing team believed in real time. I hope that's fun for you.
not trying to convince you of anything. just giving you the context you were asking for. and as Shwafta said.. it's down to whether you agree with the VAR photogrammetry and resulting decision or not.
ZYanksRule
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VAR was supposed to fix clear and obvious errors. It's like the pop-up slide in baseball, which was never called until instant replay started. This is a misapplication of VAR. Is the call correct? Maybe; I'm still not convinced. I thought the goalie punches it. Are they trying to say this guy that was half a leg over the line impacted the goalie punch and thus it had to be offsides? Boy, that's pretty thin. It was a dubious decision, and not in the spirit of the rule of what they were trying to fix.
And the world feed refusing to show more than one replay of it -- and FOX basically passing on making any comment at halftime -- makes it even more dubious. If this was such a good decision, why didn't we see more looks at it? Why did it take 10 minutes to see that animation? So the people saying Qatar fixed it - of course I'm sure that didn't happen, but the circumstances of the entire moment certainly made it seem fishy.
Do you believe someone besides the keeper touched the ball at that moment?
The cartoon doesn't even pretend to show the ball and how it was touched at the key moment.
And again, even if correct, it's ridiculous. Nobody wanted this, and now everyone pretends we have to live with it.
Yes. And in football people wanted VAR to fix bad calls on fumbles. Instead 95% of fumbles are inconclusive, except when a random 5% are overturned, and video review looks at every amazing catch like it's the Zapruder film looking for clues of who killed Kennedy and nobody knows what a catch is any more.
And now the most active use of tech in soccer is calling more offsides based on evidence that was literally impossible to see in real time, which exactly zero people thought was a problem that needed fixing. And 80% of fans just go along. "Well I guess we're getting the call right." It's a fucking cartoon!
I want to make it clear I'm not commenting on the implementation of VAR at the top of this post.
Sure, that one specific moment might have seemed fishy... but the rest of the game... Qatar has more yellow cards than Ecuador. Qatar has just about the same number of fouls as Ecuador. Ecuador is out-playing Qatar, and there's no evidence on the rest of the game that the ref is trying to help Qatar win. They even awarded a penalty to Ecuador.
I just think it's a very shaky argument and, while I wish we could find some fault and say "see, they're rigging it", there clearly is not any evidence of that in this game, except for the one "fishy var call" which, by letter of the law, is not "fishy". And yes, before someone quotes me and says "but var implementation is stupid", I agree. But that's not my point.
live play, it looked like the keeper missed the ball entirely to me. they didn't give any close up replays in slow mo, so there's no high quality shot but this angle of the replay seems to show the keeper either missed the ball or there was some bit of deflection, but it did hit the ecuador player's head otherwise the ball would not have popped up the way it did. again - all i'm saying is it was a close play that was called because of this semi-auto VAR. is it perfect? we don't know. it hasn't been in use for that long. is VAR perfect? we all know the answer to that.
argument that VAR is supposed to clear up clear and obvious errors, yes, it is supposed to but we all know it doesn't always. this semi-auto tech is supposed to take it one step further and eliminate the human aspect of drawing lines and determining point of contact. so now it's a question of whether you trust the tech or not?
all that aside, this one play is a far reach to claim this game and tournament is rigged.
i wanted to add - I agree these extremely close calls are not what this game is about. i want more goals. not goals called off because of 1 inch off sides calls. this semi-auto var basically makes the previous line drawing an even finer line instead of, what i think, should be a thicker line.
ZYanksRule
Registered
Right -- FIFA, for all its corruption, wouldn't risk turning this event into a farce. They're not fixing this for Qatar.
Never question FIFA’s integrity. Especially at a World Cup.
Michel Platini admits World Cup 1998 was FIXED for France to face Brazil in final
MICHEL PLATINI has admitted the 1998 World Cup draw was FIXED. Platini was booted out of Fifa and Uefa after revelations he had received a “disloyal payment” of £1.35million from disgraced world bo…
www.thesun.co.uk
better view of the offsides call that for some reason FOX decided not to broadcast. still a question as to which moment of contact they are using for these lines, though. to me, either the keeper misses entirely or deflects onto the ecuador player's head. if there is a deflection, then based on my understanding, that would be a "moment of contact" the tech would pick up. it's possible they could be using that, which would be a fraction of a second earlier in time. i don't have any doubt, personally, that the ball went off the ecuador player's head though. just whether there was a deflection and which moment of contact was used.
all that being said. VAR offsides should just be a visual inspection and a 30 second clock. if you can't visually see it as a ref on a second look with a few different angles, then it's not off sides and we move on. these minute offsides calls are no fun even if they arguably "even out in the end".
FWIW, I like the auto VAR for offsides photogromomery or whatever it's called. I like goal line tech. These are the best of VAR. Completely eliminate the human element. And yes, I do believe this was a perfect example of an obvious and understandable human error appropriately overturned. Unless we now believe that the technicians are drawing fake cartoons to prove their corrupt false offsides calls. In that case we are going down some serious conspiracy rabbit holes.
All of this is very different from the VAR calls of was that ball to hand or hand to ball or was there enough contact for that to really constitute a foul or etc.
All of this is very different from the VAR calls of was that ball to hand or hand to ball or was there enough contact for that to really constitute a foul or etc.
The technology should serve the game not the other way around.
If you enjoy disallowing more goals, well good for you.
If you want to take a situation where everyone was happy, and nobody knew there was a problem, because by definition we are discussing "errors" that were not visible, and convert that into a situation that means no goal celebration means anything until 3 minutes pass, well have fun with that.
Fewer goals and less spontaneity, to fix a "problem" nobody knew existed.
I honestly don't know how to talk to people about this when that is what they choose.
ETA: As a reminder - not even one Qatari player, coach or fan thought that goal was due to an offside play. Yet we rendered the goal and the celebration moot to solve - nothing.
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Mark, those are strawman arguments I didn't make and a level of disrespect and condescension I don't think I deserve.
- I like disallowing goals - I didn't say that. I actually agree with Stu Holden (so sue me), I like getting it right. I have some great ideas for giving soccer more goals. Allowing relatively easily reviewable botched calls to stand isn't one of them.
- Everyone was happy - Qatari fans might disagree.
- No goal celebration means anything until 3 minutes pass - Actually both of the other goals in this game were celebrated quite really pleasingly. Some goals are clear. Others aren't.
- A "problem" nobody knew existed - That's actually the whole point. This is something that is objectively measurable that in real time nobody caught.