Stadium Discussion

Kjbert said:
What's the difference between the government handing some one money or paying a company directly/indirectly to pay someone money?

Either way, it's a wealth transfer. Building a stadium does create a job. I would rather people work than just receive a check. My two cents.
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If it were a dollar-for dollar swap that might be a good argument. Unfortunately state governments have a history of giving subsidies that far exceed the value of the jobs created. It is much better for the government to hire someone at 50k a year or even give them 10k in various kinds of welfare than it is than give a company a $200k subsidy to hire that same person at 50k, as so often happens.

For a recent New York example see:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbe...-of-the-empire-state-development-corporation/
 
Lasker said:
If it were a dollar-for dollar swap that might be a good argument. Unfortunately state governments have a history of giving subsidies that far exceed the value of the jobs created. It is much better for the government to hire someone at 50k a year or even give them 10k in various kinds of welfare than it is than give a company a $200k subsidy to hire that same person at 50k, as so often happens.

For a recent New York example see:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbe...-of-the-empire-state-development-corporation/
Click to expand...


Oh we agree. Just saying that De Blasio can't speak out of both sides of his mouth. He can't hand someone a check for doing nothing - just being less fortunate - and then refuse to cooperate when someone is looking for help in creating jobs.

What's the difference? Except for the fact that the people who get the jobs probably aren't voting for him!
 
FredMertz said:
Care to back this up with some facts? What you are essentially saying here is that there were no big development projects in NYC that didn't occur during the 1994-2013 timeframe? How about the Javits Center, the original World Trade Center, Rockefeller Center and Lincoln Center? All at least started during the term of a Democrat mayor. Even if we were just limited to sports stadiums, Yankee Stadium, Shea Stadium, Madison Square Garden and The Arthur Ashe tennis center were all at least began under a Democrat mayor.

DeBlasio is an absolute boob, but please tell me why you think he should sacrifice tax revenue to help subsidize the richest family in the world building an NYCFC stadium. Can you argue that this new stadium will add more to the NY economy than is already being generated by their residence at Yankee Stadium?

Also, equivalent exchange of space is essentially state law and I don't think any mayor, Republican, Democrat or Independent, would argue against it.
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I was being dramatic for effect.

Why should he sacrifice tax revenue, hmm that's a tricky one.

1. Stadium economics are dodgy no matter where you build them. To be perfectly frank the vast majorities of stadiums are economic white elephants. There are simply a huge number of alternative options that are vastly better investments than building a stadium. What I just said does not account for the fact that you want to build a stadium in the five boroughs.

2. Building anything in the five boroughs is hilariously and stupidly expensive. Jesus man, Yankee stadium was $1.5b and Citi Field was $610mm. More importantly they did not have to buy the land! Does it tell you nothing that one of the best proposals would have us buy pier 40 then dump $1-200mm into it before we can start building anything?

Short and simple, if you want to build a stadium in NYC, not NJ, you have to have some kind of subsidy or tax breaks. Otherwise it will not get built. That is the start and end of the story.

Would a stadium add more to the economy than staying in Yankee stadium? I have no idea, nor do I have the information that would let me accurately analyze that. Gut shot says, probably not.

Though that disregards the fact that we are playing in someone else's home. If a Yankees player is hurt because of a soccer divot, guess what no more NYCFC in Yankee Stadium. Where do we go then? The true purpose of a stadium is to provide a team stability, in terms of planning and finance.

We also have not touched on the common good argument in the slightest. Aka even if NYC spends a bunch of money in tax breaks, is the utility (happiness) an average NYer gains from the team greater or less than the utility (happiness) an average NYer would gain from the money being spent elsewhere.

Really now, I'm going to need the statute. That is some serious news to me. If I recollect correctly equivalent exchange is something the politicians bang their fists on a podium about then quietly let slip into oblivion when crunch time hits.
 
JGarrettLieb said:
I was being dramatic for effect.

Why should he sacrifice tax revenue, hmm that's a tricky one.

1. Stadium economics are dodgy no matter where you build them. To be perfectly frank the vast majorities of stadiums are economic white elephants. There are simply a huge number of alternative options that are vastly better investments than building a stadium. What I just said does not account for the fact that you want to build a stadium in the five boroughs.

2. Building anything in the five boroughs is hilariously and stupidly expensive. Jesus man, Yankee stadium was $1.5b and Citi Field was $610mm. More importantly they did not have to buy the land! Does it tell you nothing that one of the best proposals would have us buy pier 40 then dump $1-200mm into it before we can start building anything?

Short and simple, if you want to build a stadium in NYC, not NJ, you have to have some kind of subsidy or tax breaks. Otherwise it will not get built. That is the start and end of the story.

Would a stadium add more to the economy than staying in Yankee stadium? I have no idea, nor do I have the information that would let me accurately analyze that. Gut shot says, probably not.

Though that disregards the fact that we are playing in someone else's home. If a Yankees player is hurt because of a soccer divot, guess what no more NYCFC in Yankee Stadium. Where do we go then? The true purpose of a stadium is to provide a team stability, in terms of planning and finance.

We also have not touched on the common good argument in the slightest. Aka even if NYC spends a bunch of money in tax breaks, is the utility (happiness) an average NYer gains from the team greater or less than the utility (happiness) an average NYer would gain from the money being spent elsewhere.

Really now, I'm going to need the statute. That is some serious news to me. If I recollect correctly equivalent exchange is something the politicians bang their fists on a podium about then quietly let slip into oblivion when crunch time hits.
Click to expand...
One idea that nullifies most of your points is the floating stadium.
 
A lot of if's but assuming you are correct that the timeline gets dragged out and attendance grows to the point that they are looking at a much larger stadium (I think chances are good this will happen). At what size does sharing with an NFL team enter the discussion? When is the Jets lease at met life up? (Assuming the Jets are the more likely of the two teams to leave). I know people complain about soccer in football stadiums, but if it was planned for both from the start maybe they could optimize the layout for both?

I bring it up because I think it will be an issue if we get to the point of trying to put an 80K seat stadium some place in NYC. The NFL tried and got shot down by the city, I can just see the complaints now: (In my best grumpy typical NFL fan voice) "They wouldn't let the Jets/giants build in the city, and I have to drive all the way to the Meadow lands every weekend but they are giving the green light for some middle eastern owned stupid soccer team to build a stadium the size of metlife right in Manhattan! this is BS"

Edit: according to Wikipedia the Jets or Giants can opt out starting in 2025, assuming the leases started in 2010: "After the 15th year of the lease, every five years, one of the two teams may opt out of the lease after giving the state 12 months notice."
 
Stadium-building for privately owned teams has largely been a matter of socializing the costs of construction (tax breaks, giveaways of public land, whatever) while privatizing the profits generated by the stadium. As much as I would love to see us with an SSS, and it will happen if the team sticks around, I'd prefer it were privately funded by CFG and sited in a way that's respectful to the communities around it.
 
We should be targeting 30K but with renovation room to maneuver up to 40-5oK. I want to be as big as possible but very few European teams even have bigger than 50K attendance. As a few people have said this CAN NOT be in Jersey. It's a large part of our identity that it's in the 5 boroughs. It's a major reason we siphoned off a chunk of their fan base and attracted a ton of people who wanted a local team to support but would never cross to Jersey. we'd likely draw in the 20 K range and lose tons of our current support if in Jersey. I'd rather stay in Yankee stadium for ten years or twenty than end up in Jersey.
 
Davo15 said:
We should be targeting 30K but with renovation room to maneuver up to 40-5oK. I want to be as big as possible but very few European teams even have bigger than 50K attendance. As a few people have said this CAN NOT be in Jersey. It's a large part of our identity that it's in the 5 boroughs. It's a major reason we siphoned off a chunk of their fan base and attracted a ton of people who wanted a local team to support but would never cross to Jersey. we'd likely draw in the 20 K range and lose tons of our current support if in Jersey. I'd rather stay in Yankee stadium for ten years or twenty than end up in Jersey.
Click to expand...
Not even sure we draw 20k in NJ. I'd certainly drop my 4 season tix.
 
FootyLovin said:
Not even sure we draw 20k in NJ. I'd certainly drop my 4 season tix.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. I support NYCFC because it is a New York not New Jersey team, if they put a stadium in New Jersey I would drop my season tickets in a heartbeat.

I'd still support the team, but I'd probably change from going to every single home game to going once a season... maybe.
 
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