The British Are Coming... No, The Yanks Are Coming...

Mikeylito

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So, this is mainly for my edification, but it it helps bring others along... so be it.

This thread is directed to our UK-based members and I've heard you like to be called English, not British, but I couldn't help myself with an internalized pun about Paul Revere and Usonian World War II battle themes.

Anyway, I've mostly taught myself about English soccer versus North American soccer by trying to associate our competitions with yours. For example:
English Premier League vs. Major League Soccer.
FA Cup vs. US Open Cup.

It's a lot easier when you strip away most of the sponsorship nonsense.
For example, we don't have anything like the Capital One Cup, which I've learned is the Football League Cup. If we combined USL, NASL and MLS into a competition, that would be our equivalent of the FL Cup.

While the caliber of the competition isn't the same, we both have Champions League.
I'm struggling with Europa League, but if my intuition is correct, we used to have something called the North American SuperLiga. In both cases, it's a losers' league.

The Community Shield is a one off between the EPL winner and the FA Cup winner.
We don't have a similar match between the MLS Cup winner and the Open Cup winner.

I'm assuming the driving force behind all these competitions is dinero.

Recently, while perusing the BPL website, I noticed that there's an U23 (21?) Premier League.
How many different leagues fall under the Premier League umbrella and how much attention is paid to them?

I have other questions, but any misconceptions that I may have, please feel free to correct them. Despite whatever bad puns and jokes I may throw in, this is a serious attempt to learn something,

Thanks!
 
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Well, you've asked about a thousand questions!

Basically, the UK includes the four countries of Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England. Great Britain is Scotland, Wales, and England. But it's also way more complicated than that, so if you want the whole story I'd go with this video:


You might also want to check the FA's site. There's the Premiere League but there's also three leagues (more or less) underneath, not to mention youth leagues, women's leagues, etc.

There are also other complications. For example, if the EPL winner is also the FA Cup winner you'll need someone else in the Community Shield match.

We could be talking about all of this stuff for months!
 
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P.S, Is that video futbol related? If so, I'll watch it.
I'm familiar with the political science differences between being British and being English.
That may be one of my jokes that got lost in translation. Calling Woody Allen.

My interests here are comparing and learning about English football versus North American (association) football. If push comes to shove, use English terminology and if I'm confused, I'll ask. I'm not afraid to look dumb.

Suddenly, a thousand head slaps reverberate around the metropolitan area.
 
The Community Shield is a one off between the EPL winner and the FA Cup winner.
We don't have a similar match between the MLS Cup winner and the Open Cup winner.

I'm assuming the driving force behind all these competitions is dinero.

Not the Community Shield, it used to be called the Charity Shield and the some of the money raised from the match went to charity. I think they failed to meet certain criteria which allowed them to name it a 'charity' so they had to rename it but I still think most of the money in ticket sales and TV rights goes to various charities.

Recently, while perusing the BPL website, I noticed that there's an U23 (21?) Premier League.
How many different leagues fall under the Premier League umbrella and how much attention is paid to them?

There's also an U18 Premier League and U19 Champions League, the U21 teams used to be called the reserves, the FA did a complete overhaul of the league to try and get more young players playing. Not much attention is paid to it.
 
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Hmmm... MLS used to have a reserve league but instead hooked up with USL (3rd Division in US pyramid).
Galaxy II (Los Dos) was the first to do this, but just about every club in MLS has a II or 2 in USL now.

I did a nigh bit of research and saw that England has a PDL as does the US. RBNY has a U23(?) team that plays in our PDL and, apparently, the U-squads in England are part of your PDL structure, no?

The latest iteration of NASL is a breakaway faction from USL. Without getting into the politics of it, NASL broke away from USL and after a cooling off period, NASL became Division 2 in the US pyramid and USL Division 3.

I gather FA is separate from the Football League.
The Football Association is analagous to the US Soccer Federation.
The Football League seems to be analogous to United Soccer Leagues which is the parent of USL.

Re: the various U-squads associated with Premier League
Not much attention is paid to it.
That's what I was wondering.

Thanks, Calmness Personified Calmness Personified. I appreciate the information.
This is a good faith effort to learn what English football is about.

Gavin23 Gavin23. You had a comment?
 
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I'll take this point by point rather than trying to reply in one bulk comment. It seems simpler that way. This is going to be a fairly long post because when I get myself going I find it hard to stop writing. Sorry if this gets tl;dr.

It's a lot easier when you strip away most of the sponsorship nonsense.
For example, we don't have anything like the Capital One Cup, which I've learned is the Football League Cup. If we combined USL, NASL and MLS into a competition, that would be our equivalent of the FL Cup.

Very much so. If you read English forums, as opposed to just news sources, you may notice that we as a general rule do not refer to the sponsor. Pretty much...ever. In fact, many of us find the fact that these competitions need to have a sponsor tacked onto the name fairly galling and ever so slightly obnoxious. Indeed, for this reason, most of us assume that when Americans (or pretty much anyone else) refers to the "BPL" meaning "Barclays Premier League", that the American in question is actually calling it the "British Premier League", as we simply can't work out what the B is supposed to be for otherwise, and that raises a whole different kettle of fish - one this thread has already brought up. Some folk here wouldn't even know who the sponsor is, because we consciously try to ignore that they have them.

As a general rule, if you want to talk to English people about English competitions, do not mention the sponsor name.

I'm assuming the driving force behind all these competitions is dinero.

Actually, this is one major place where you'd be wrong. The driving force behind all of these competitions is tradition. Tradition is important in the UK in a way you simply can't compare to most other countries in the world. Times are slowly changing, but to many people, things - pretty much anything under the right circumstances - can become sacrosanct if they are rooted in tradition, especially if they are rooted in the knowledge that the tradition goes back further than anyone alive who can remember a time before it happened. When people call for traditions to be scrapped, or even altered, there tends to be a massive backlash, and often that backlash is not so much rooted in the fact that people do not think the change is a good thing but just that the idea of changing something which has always been the same goes against the grain in a way people just can't handle.

Take, for example, the propositions a couple of years ago to allow PL sides to operate B-teams inside the actual league structure, where they have always priorly had a (very non-competitive) "reserve league" which was nothing more than a rehabilitation league for injured first team players plus a handful of youths. Everyone knew this system wasn't working. Everyone hated the reserve leagues and everyone agreed that they had to go. However, professional teams have never had B-teams in the actual league pyramid. About 50-100 years ago some clubs did run them in lower leagues where they played competitive games against amateur sides, but that was before those lower leagues became connected to the Football League by the promotion/relegation system. The PL is broadly in favour of B-teams, but the Football League and the Conference (I abhor the new "National League" name, makes it sound like a Nazi rally) refuse to let them in because it threatens their traditional position in the order of precedence.

In fairness, under the proposed rules they would probably get a fairly bum deal, but even if a compromise was offered which made it financially lucrative for FL clubs it would still be unpopular because it would mean allowing an upstart B-team to usurp their position and get in the way of their dreams of eventually reaching the PL. No club is willing to accept that, so B-teams will never happen - not in a serious way, anyway.

There have been various murmurs recently about getting rid of certain competitions, or at least reducing them. Some competitions, especially in the first rounds, are not financially favourable and some clubs actually spend more than they earn in winnings on travel costs. Some people also suggest removing PL sides from the League Cup and replacing it with a PL Cup to reduce the number of games that have to be played and to make those games more important to the clubs involved. You want to know why that will never happen? Because it just doesn't fit the way English football works, that's why.

Or another example - most European leagues have a winter break of 2-4 weeks over Christmas. This lets players stay home and see their families, and also when you consider some teams play more than 60 games a season, it's important for fitness and health. However, in England we have always had a tradition of every single team playing a game on Boxing Day (26th December - another tradition) and one on New Year's Day. This is the only reason we won't allow winter breaks, and we all know it is hurting the league but it's something that society just won't allow to stop happening. Most clubs even make their players do a day's training on Christmas Day, just to make sure they are ready for the Boxing Day game, because it's that important to us.

To put this into perspective as relates to your question - the youngest competitions that any professional side compete in are the Football League Trophy (1983) and the Football League Cup (1960). The Football League goes back to 1888. The FA Cup goes back to 1871. The Premier League is an exception to the rule - it only came into existence because the top tier of English clubs in 1991-92 decided they were getting cheated out of TV money by the Football League. In terms of how the PL is organised, it remains essentially the exact same competition as it was before, it just has a lot more money and independence now. Most people would not make a distinction between a team's overall league wins and their PL wins, though, except in the context of modern performance compared with historic.

Recently, while perusing the BPL website, I noticed that there's an U23 (21?) Premier League.
How many different leagues fall under the Premier League umbrella and how much attention is paid to them

Slightly hard to answer. The U21 PL competition (U23 is an age bracket that doesn't really exist in the British consciousness - to us, once you are too old for U21 you are a senior player) is a recent invention as part of the drive to get rid of reserve football and replace it with something that's better for kids. It carries the PL name, but it's not exclusive to the PL - it's open to the academy sides of any PL or FL club, so long as they meet certain criteria on the quality of their academy facilities. In fact, "Under-21 Premier League" is only its sponsor name. It's technically called the Professional Development League, and the U21 PL is just the first of three tiers of it. In this instance, the PL name is used more for marketing than because of a direct connection.

As for other competitions - there is an U18 PL, but that is just the junior competition under the PDL, and it operates in the same way. There is also a U21 PL Cup, which again is linked to the PDL. There is the Premier League Asia Trophy, which is nothing more than a biennial friendly competition for three PL teams (generally one top six, one mid-table and one relegation-battler) and one Asian club, always played in Asia and basically there to generate Asian interest in the league.

Finally, there is the Premier League International Cup, which is an English-centric U21 version of the Champions League, with as many English teams as European sides. It's entirely invitation only, even for the English clubs (only PL clubs are eligible, unlike the PDL) and basically exists to give youth players experience of competitive European matches. With the creation of the UEFA Youth League, they may scrap this competition soon.

With the exception of the Premier League Asia Trophy (which was started in 2003) all of the above only came into existence in the last 3-4 years. They're pretty much all a reaction to the FA insisting that standards of youth training must drastically improve, and are all a response to the idea that the best way to do this is by making youth football more competitive.

The latest iteration of NASL is a breakaway faction from USL. Without getting into the politics of it, NASL broke away from USL and after a cooling off period, NASL became Division 2 in the US pyramid and USL Division 3.

I gather FA is separate from the Football League.
The Football Association is analagous to the US Soccer Federation.
The Football League seems to be analogous to United Soccer Leagues which is the parent of USL.

That's basically all accurate.
 
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So far, so good.
I'm really appreciative of the discussion to this point.

Falastur Falastur - I've been known to get rather lengthy myself on certain occasions, but I appreciate all the detail that you went into and I'll re-read it several times to absorb it.

My flip comment about money probably derives from the formation of the Premier League as well as recent talk about forming a Super League. Whether that involves just English football or European football, I haven't stopped long enough to take note.

As I have noted in my signature and in other places, I'm mainly interested in Usonian football. However, that's a bit disingenuous. I actually started following English football a couple of years ago following all the various Boxing Day matches that you've mentioned. I thought that was just fascinating and it's something I look forward to every year. I guess I hadn't realized the same thing occurred on New Year's Day, but then Usonians tend to be wrapped up with our own college gridiron football and, recently, outdoor professional hockey, that I really didn't notice English football matches.

I'm going to steep myself in this information for a bit but I'm sure I'll have more questioms. Thanks!
 
I'll give a lengthy reply which allows my own part of Britain, Scotland, to come into it, and ill delve into Europe as well. (If i've understood the OP correctly my answer should make sense)

England:


English Premiership - 20 Teams, Play each other twice Bottom 3 relegated, Top 3 automatically qualify for Champion's League Group Stages, 4th place for Playoff Qualifier of Champion's League. 5th place qualifies for the Europa League, 6th and 7th also depending on winner of Domestic Cup's (FA and League Cup).

English Championship - Top 2 automatically promoted to EPL. 3rd through 6th compete in a playoff to find the 3rd promoted team to the EPL.

League 1 - Same as the Championship in promotion, top 2 auto, and then a playoff with the next 4. 4 relegated teams to league 2.

League 2 - 3 automatically promoted, 1 through the same playoff system. 2 teams relegated to the non-leagues.

Non-League - This is where you stat getting semi-pro teams and the occasional amateur team. Sure there is like 7 or 8 tiers of this. Real, gritty football. A million miles from the PL.

FA Cup - Every team in England and those in Wales who participate in the English League System take part in this, the winner qualifies for the Europa League. Knockout tournament with final played as last game of the season.

Capital One Cup (League Cup) - Knockout tournament for teams in the professional leagues (Prem to League 2), winner qualifies for Europa League, knockout tournament, final played normally around march.

Community Shield - Winner of League against winner of FA Cup

Johnstone Paint Trophy - Knockout tournament for League 1 and 2 clubs.

U21 League - Slightly Different format from normal league, and doesn't necessarily have the top teams in the top leagues.


Scotland:

Scottish Premiership
- 12 teams. Bottom gets relegated, 11th goes into relegation playoff against winner of promotion playoff in Championship, Champions qualify for Champion's League Qualifiers, 2nd and 3rd qualify for Europa League qualifiers.

Scottish Championship - 10 teams. Top team automatically promoted, 2nd through 4th playoff and winner plays 11th in Prem to see who gets relegated/promoted. Bottom relegated, second bottom in identical relegation playoff.

Scottish League 1 - 10 teams. Identical to Championship.

Scottish League 2 - 10 teams. Identical again to League 1 and Championship except only one relegation, who play against the winners of playoff between winners of Lowland league and Highland League.

Highland-Lowland Leagues - 18 teams each. Non League. Pyramid regional system. Winner of 18 team Lowland League plays against winner of 18 team Highland League for opportunity to play bottom of league 2. Maybe about 6 tiers of this.

Scottish Cup - Involves every single Scottish team of all levels including preliminary rounds. Winner qualifies for Europa League. Final is the last game of Scottish season.

League Cup - Involves Prem through to League 2. Knockout.

League Challenge Cup - Involves teams from Championship through League 2. Knockout.


Europe:

Not going to get into the technicalities of qualification and what country gts what place etc, but basically the better nations get more spots and the lesser ones get least, the worst have to make their teams go through qualifiers, and lower placed teams in big leagues do the same.

Champions League
- 32 team tournament, 8 groups of four, top two qualify for Last 16, bottom two eliminated, 3rd place enter Europa League. Last 16 - top placed team in each group plays a second placed team of another. Knockout from there on.

Europa League - The lesser of the European competitions. 56 team tournament (48 at group stage) 12 groups of 4. Then Last 32 stage where the 3rd placed Champions League teams enter. Knockout from there till final.

UEFA Super Cup - Winner of Champion's League against winner of Europa League.