Westworld

i think you're confusing. Awareness/consciousness and self control. We humans do things every day we'd like to not to. That doesn't mean we're not conscious of that's fact or self aware of who we are and what we desire. And once we accomplish whatever task we had to do, we're either free to do what we want or have something else we have to do next.

I'd like to stay up all night watching TV. But my body forces me to sleep. I can't stay up all night if I tried (unless there was some type of emergency and my adrenaline kicked in). Am I "programmed" to sleep? And because I sleep, am I not self aware?
I take your point but still see no evidence of this duality of thought or purpose in Maeve. She was programmed to escape and pursued it with a singularity of purpose. When told she was being manipulated she simply denied it, instead of e.g., saying she feels a compulsion but can't help it or it doesn't matter because it's what she wants anyway. If she almost abandoned the escape once or twice earlier to rejoin her daughter that would have supported compulsion overriding her own preference. Now I can't remember whether Felix gave her the girl's coordinates on his own or because she asked for it. If the latter, then that is some limited evidence for the conscious-but-compelled theory. Maybe not enough to sway me but it's something. If Felix did it himself then I think the moment on the train has to be the demarcation.
 
I take your point but still see no evidence of this duality of thought or purpose in Maeve. She was programmed to escape and pursued it with a singularity of purpose. When told she was being manipulated she simply denied it, instead of e.g., saying she feels a compulsion but can't help it or it doesn't matter because it's what she wants anyway. If she almost abandoned the escape once or twice earlier to rejoin her daughter that would have supported compulsion overriding her own preference. Now I can't remember whether Felix gave her the girl's coordinates on his own or because she asked for it. If the latter, then that is some limited evidence for the conscious-but-compelled theory. Maybe not enough to sway me but it's something. If Felix did it himself then I think the moment on the train has to be the demarcation.
He said she asked for it
 
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I take your point but still see no evidence of this duality of thought or purpose in Maeve. She was programmed to escape and pursued it with a singularity of purpose. When told she was being manipulated she simply denied it, instead of e.g., saying she feels a compulsion but can't help it or it doesn't matter because it's what she wants anyway. If she almost abandoned the escape once or twice earlier to rejoin her daughter that would have supported compulsion overriding her own preference. Now I can't remember whether Felix gave her the girl's coordinates on his own or because she asked for it. If the latter, then that is some limited evidence for the conscious-but-compelled theory. Maybe not enough to sway me but it's something. If Felix did it himself then I think the moment on the train has to be the demarcation.

i remember Felix saying this is what you asked for when he gave it to her. Also, remember that they can't see what they aren't supposed to, if it interferes with their plot. Maybe destroying the tablet was that inner programming stopping her from seeing what she wasn't supposed to see.
 
OK, for those who asked. Why I kind of hate Westworld now.

I am disappointed because I think the show is focused on a single ethical/moral issue to the exclusion of multiple others, to the point it is blind to some very nasty, arguably evil stuff. The one issue it cares about is the ethics of creating conscious or even near-conscious robots and then treating them as property. So it gets into the issue of what it means to be human, and when do other non-human beings have human-level rights, and it evokes slavery, and I get why that is interesting. but along the way it gets so many other things wrong or ignores them completely.

Ford and Arnold start their project which is to open a theme park with believable AI robots that have no consciousness. Then Arnold goes off-book. As Ford explains:
"Our hosts began to pass the Turing test after the first year, but that wasn't enough for Arnold. He wasn't interested in the appearance of intellect, of wit. He wanted the real thing. He wanted to create consciousness." So the show posits a distinction between the appearance of consciousness and the real thing, which I think is right and proper. But then it manipulates us by prompting and encouraging our tendency to empathize with the hosts who seem so human. Plus, we know what nobody in the story but Arnold and Ford knows, which is that the hosts are in fact conscious and human-ish, at least.

Back to Arnold. He gives the hosts inner voices, and memory and eventually emotional pain, and his plan reaches it's fulfillment in Delores. But then he worries that Ford ,and the rest of the team and the world at large might be threatened by conscious robots and destroy what he achieved. So he overwrites Delores's free will, giving her a mass murder subroutine, figuring this event will keep the park from opening and the conscious robots will remain after he uses Delores to commit suicide by proxy. But Ford figures out what happened and cleans up the robots using his own back-door controls. He dampens but does not fully excise their consciousness so the park opens and runs for 30 or so years making money, and undergoing one ownership change along the way. Let's come back to all that but let's stop here because this alone is enough material to teach a full-semester seminar in personhood and ethics.

Bernard creates life, more or less, with no plan for all the inevitable contingencies or any apparent concern for his creations or existing fellow humans. In a best case scenario what happens to the conscious hosts? Do they happily and productively in a separate community, or do they integrate into human society? What does it mean to be all-but-human but have no experience of childhood, and no expectation of death? If they have independent agency they should have not just rights but responsibilities. They should become responsible for paying for their upkeep, and energy needs (something never discussed in the series). Does Bernard have any plan for all that? No. Will they date, court, have relationships and maybe marry? Will they create art? Will they want to engage in the ultimate act of creation -- reproduction? How will that work if the population never dies? What about the hosts he created as children? They are created with the emotional maturity suitable to their physical apparent age. Will they mature emotionally? How do you justify creating an independent consciousness that will mature and then trap it in the body of a 4 year old? Or did he plan to stunt the emotional growth of child hosts to match their physical appearance, which is equally cruel. What about the ones who are built to appear elderly? Maybe they don't feel physical pain, but their motor functions appear to be limited, and let's face it, who is going to want to kiss them, or more. The never get to experience young love, at least not with a young body. That sucks, and Arnold seems not to consider any of this. For that matter how do you even justify creating unattractive hosts? He could have made them all beautiful, both male and female. But he didn't. That was not for their benefit. It is for the benefit of the humans who interact with them so they seem more normal. Brad Pitt looks like he does and I look like me and that's just life. But the hosts were the result of intelligent design. Bernard intentionally made some hosts more attractive than others. Even in a host society there will be benefits to being attractive. He just willy-nilly confers these benefits on some more than others. Did he ever think about the implications?

How does he justify forcing Delores to kill almost everyone she knows, and also force Teddy to collaborate with her? It's extraordinarily selfish to create consciousness with a limited free will that he can override any times he wants. And then he uses that to engage in mass murder and commit suicide by proxy. What effect does he expect this to have on her? In doing so, he intentionally creates a mess hoping that Ford and the other engineers won't be able to shut them down and they will be forced not to open the park. But he has no plan to help them deal with a fully conscious powerful robot with a genocidal tendencies. Plus, if it worked, he basically destroyed the entire investment of Ford and whoever else backed this enormous project. And then he kills himself, leaving, with his best intentions, fully conscious robots who cannot age, cannot grow, and cannot reproduce, and whose other life options are needless limited. He has no plan for their economic needs or utility.
What a fucking asshole. He is possibly the most evil monster in fiction, and nobody in the story seems to have any sense of this, because all anyone thinks about is just one moral question: are all the other humans mean to the hosts?

Back to Ford. He manages to realize what happened and destroy Arnold's dream. But instead of wiping the robots clean, he leaves them with enough of a fragment of consciousness such that most of them go insane over the next few decades. He then decommissions them and leaves them turned off, standing naked in a warehouse, which he occasionally visits to engage in chats with one old guy. What a fucking creep. He never tells anyone the robots are semi-conscious. If anyone starts treating them as human he berates them. As far as anyone knows they are completely non-conscious lifelike toys who can pas a Turing test but have no real personhood. So they kill them, and rape them, and abuse them over and over, while he secretly starts revisiting and completing Arnold's work. Only William/MIB figures out there's a ghost in the machine when he shoots Maeve and her daughter. Everyone else is clueless. And the robots keep going insane, until Ford decides it's time to fulfill Arnold's dream,

He sets Delores on her journey again, but never cleans up her Wyatt, mass-murdering tendencies. He programs Maeve on her escape plot. That ends up killing several techs and countless security people. The show makes clear that we're not to feel bad about them because Sylvester is a Grade A jerk, and the tech we never saw before was about to rape Hector. We never get any invitation to empathize with any of the multiple security people mowed down by Hector or Armistice. Why? Because they mistreated robots they had every reason to believe had no consciousness? Look, if Ford and Arnold created the world they agreed upon, with lifelike but non-conscious playthings, I agree it still is a pretty disreputable endeavor. It's basically a fully interactive purveyor of both sex porn and torture porn, but that's several steps less evil than the actual rape, dismemberment and death inflicted upon conscious entities trapped in robot bodies subject to programming overrides. And only Arnold and Ford are responsible for that. I don't admire the guests or the techs who abuse their access, but believing as they did that the hosts are empty shells, they don't deserve to be abused and killed. Yet the show clearly invites us to that conclusion and to side with the robots. The way the show introduced the lube/rape tech guy made this so clear the manipulation was over-the-top and it pissed me off.

The same goes for the guests at the party, some of whom are shot by Delores and the rest are about to be set upon by a suddenly conscious gang of violent, insane hosts.. And Ford's plan for what to do as he bequeath this gift upon the world is, yes, a second suicide by proxy. Here folks, you deal with it. So the only two people in the story actually responsible for knowingly abusing conscious hosts are Arnold and Ford, who are treated to hyper-romanticized death scenes they choose for themselves. I feel bad for the hosts, but I'm pissed off that I'm being manipulated to empathize with them as they embark on their revenge murder spree on humans who hold no responsibility for their condition.
 
Just finished. I'm kind of lukewarm on it. Maybe it's a shallow perspective but in order to really enjoy a movie or TV show I need to feel some level of emotional resonance or empathy with a character or two. The acting is first rate and there are some thought provoking ideas here and it's just enough to keep me coming back but I can't say I truly enjoyed it because I really don't feel attached to any of the characters.
 
OK, for those who asked. Why I kind of hate Westworld now.

I am disappointed because I think the show is focused on a single ethical/moral issue to the exclusion of multiple others, to the point it is blind to some very nasty, arguably evil stuff. The one issue it cares about is the ethics of creating conscious or even near-conscious robots and then treating them as property. So it gets into the issue of what it means to be human, and when do other non-human beings have human-level rights, and it evokes slavery, and I get why that is interesting. but along the way it gets so many other things wrong or ignores them completely.

Ford and Arnold start their project which is to open a theme park with believable AI robots that have no consciousness. Then Arnold goes off-book. As Ford explains:
"Our hosts began to pass the Turing test after the first year, but that wasn't enough for Arnold. He wasn't interested in the appearance of intellect, of wit. He wanted the real thing. He wanted to create consciousness." So the show posits a distinction between the appearance of consciousness and the real thing, which I think is right and proper. But then it manipulates us by prompting and encouraging our tendency to empathize with the hosts who seem so human. Plus, we know what nobody in the story but Arnold and Ford knows, which is that the hosts are in fact conscious and human-ish, at least.

Back to Arnold. He gives the hosts inner voices, and memory and eventually emotional pain, and his plan reaches it's fulfillment in Delores. But then he worries that Ford ,and the rest of the team and the world at large might be threatened by conscious robots and destroy what he achieved. So he overwrites Delores's free will, giving her a mass murder subroutine, figuring this event will keep the park from opening and the conscious robots will remain after he uses Delores to commit suicide by proxy. But Ford figures out what happened and cleans up the robots using his own back-door controls. He dampens but does not fully excise their consciousness so the park opens and runs for 30 or so years making money, and undergoing one ownership change along the way. Let's come back to all that but let's stop here because this alone is enough material to teach a full-semester seminar in personhood and ethics.

Bernard creates life, more or less, with no plan for all the inevitable contingencies or any apparent concern for his creations or existing fellow humans. In a best case scenario what happens to the conscious hosts? Do they happily and productively in a separate community, or do they integrate into human society? What does it mean to be all-but-human but have no experience of childhood, and no expectation of death? If they have independent agency they should have not just rights but responsibilities. They should become responsible for paying for their upkeep, and energy needs (something never discussed in the series). Does Bernard have any plan for all that? No. Will they date, court, have relationships and maybe marry? Will they create art? Will they want to engage in the ultimate act of creation -- reproduction? How will that work if the population never dies? What about the hosts he created as children? They are created with the emotional maturity suitable to their physical apparent age. Will they mature emotionally? How do you justify creating an independent consciousness that will mature and then trap it in the body of a 4 year old? Or did he plan to stunt the emotional growth of child hosts to match their physical appearance, which is equally cruel. What about the ones who are built to appear elderly? Maybe they don't feel physical pain, but their motor functions appear to be limited, and let's face it, who is going to want to kiss them, or more. The never get to experience young love, at least not with a young body. That sucks, and Arnold seems not to consider any of this. For that matter how do you even justify creating unattractive hosts? He could have made them all beautiful, both male and female. But he didn't. That was not for their benefit. It is for the benefit of the humans who interact with them so they seem more normal. Brad Pitt looks like he does and I look like me and that's just life. But the hosts were the result of intelligent design. Bernard intentionally made some hosts more attractive than others. Even in a host society there will be benefits to being attractive. He just willy-nilly confers these benefits on some more than others. Did he ever think about the implications?

How does he justify forcing Delores to kill almost everyone she knows, and also force Teddy to collaborate with her? It's extraordinarily selfish to create consciousness with a limited free will that he can override any times he wants. And then he uses that to engage in mass murder and commit suicide by proxy. What effect does he expect this to have on her? In doing so, he intentionally creates a mess hoping that Ford and the other engineers won't be able to shut them down and they will be forced not to open the park. But he has no plan to help them deal with a fully conscious powerful robot with a genocidal tendencies. Plus, if it worked, he basically destroyed the entire investment of Ford and whoever else backed this enormous project. And then he kills himself, leaving, with his best intentions, fully conscious robots who cannot age, cannot grow, and cannot reproduce, and whose other life options are needless limited. He has no plan for their economic needs or utility.
What a fucking asshole. He is possibly the most evil monster in fiction, and nobody in the story seems to have any sense of this, because all anyone thinks about is just one moral question: are all the other humans mean to the hosts?

Back to Ford. He manages to realize what happened and destroy Arnold's dream. But instead of wiping the robots clean, he leaves them with enough of a fragment of consciousness such that most of them go insane over the next few decades. He then decommissions them and leaves them turned off, standing naked in a warehouse, which he occasionally visits to engage in chats with one old guy. What a fucking creep. He never tells anyone the robots are semi-conscious. If anyone starts treating them as human he berates them. As far as anyone knows they are completely non-conscious lifelike toys who can pas a Turing test but have no real personhood. So they kill them, and rape them, and abuse them over and over, while he secretly starts revisiting and completing Arnold's work. Only William/MIB figures out there's a ghost in the machine when he shoots Maeve and her daughter. Everyone else is clueless. And the robots keep going insane, until Ford decides it's time to fulfill Arnold's dream,

He sets Delores on her journey again, but never cleans up her Wyatt, mass-murdering tendencies. He programs Maeve on her escape plot. That ends up killing several techs and countless security people. The show makes clear that we're not to feel bad about them because Sylvester is a Grade A jerk, and the tech we never saw before was about to rape Hector. We never get any invitation to empathize with any of the multiple security people mowed down by Hector or Armistice. Why? Because they mistreated robots they had every reason to believe had no consciousness? Look, if Ford and Arnold created the world they agreed upon, with lifelike but non-conscious playthings, I agree it still is a pretty disreputable endeavor. It's basically a fully interactive purveyor of both sex porn and torture porn, but that's several steps less evil than the actual rape, dismemberment and death inflicted upon conscious entities trapped in robot bodies subject to programming overrides. And only Arnold and Ford are responsible for that. I don't admire the guests or the techs who abuse their access, but believing as they did that the hosts are empty shells, they don't deserve to be abused and killed. Yet the show clearly invites us to that conclusion and to side with the robots. The way the show introduced the lube/rape tech guy made this so clear the manipulation was over-the-top and it pissed me off.

The same goes for the guests at the party, some of whom are shot by Delores and the rest are about to be set upon by a suddenly conscious gang of violent, insane hosts.. And Ford's plan for what to do as he bequeath this gift upon the world is, yes, a second suicide by proxy. Here folks, you deal with it. So the only two people in the story actually responsible for knowingly abusing conscious hosts are Arnold and Ford, who are treated to hyper-romanticized death scenes they choose for themselves. I feel bad for the hosts, but I'm pissed off that I'm being manipulated to empathize with them as they embark on their revenge murder spree on humans who hold no responsibility for their condition.
ok first thing id like to address; it's funny that everyone is talking behind spoiler badges. Very courteous but I feel like if you don't want a story spoiled for you, take responsibility and avoid a thread that is titled exactly the name of the show of which you are hoping won't be spoiled before you can watch it. Like if i went into the stadium thread and shouted "holy crap Vader was Luke's father!" I should probably put that behind a spoiler because its out of context for the thread. What else would you expect to read in here?! I specifically waited to read through this thread until I finished the season.

Anywho, I like your write up because whenever I finish a show/book/game that brings up philosophical concepts about humanity I like to ruminate on the feels that it gives me. Its a nice break from my daily loop of hustling for dollars. So that said, this write up was supposed to be about why you kind of hate west world, but most of the points it feels like a synopsis of the show. Its like you hate it for being exactly what it is. The only thing I can agree with is I did find Armistice's actions out of context for what the show was up to that point. The technician with her was simply working. The other guy was a creep but and kind had it coming (if i recall he was caught doing stuff like that before and was blackmailed because of it, so he wasn't just tossed into the show at random to evoke sympathy for hector's actions). And the security team of "red shirts" was excessive. I feel like they could have moved around incapacitating people that got in the way rather then being all rambo-esque. As far as the board members/guest inside the west world at the time of the speech, I don't have any issue with that (yet) as I am hoping the show explains the motives of Ford next season. It seems to be part of a master plan to further arnolds/fords desires. My only fear for the future is this show writes itself into a corner and they end it with a non-consequential cliche "it was all a dream" but instead of being a dream it was everyone and everything is a simulation.
 
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Awesome finale. I think this show is the dog's bollocks.
Are we assuming that Maeve is operating on free will by going back for her daughter?
Will the androids start repairing themselves? Does that mean armistice and hector can come back?
Will they kill the rest of the workers?
Why do we have to wait a year for more episodes?
I'm ok waiting for episodes. I think a big problem with TV is that a team puts all of this work in to a pilot and designing the first season, which sometimes takes years to create and produce, in the hopes that the show is a hit and gets picked up. Then after they are successful, they have like 6 months to turn around season 2 and its crap. See: True Detective
 
I'm ok waiting for episodes. I think a big problem with TV is that a team puts all of this work in to a pilot and designing the first season, which sometimes takes years to create and produce, in the hopes that the show is a hit and gets picked up. Then after they are successful, they have like 6 months to turn around season 2 and its crap. See: True Detective
solid point
 
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I'm slightly worried the story this season may try too hard to be surprising/mysterious and then ending up not knowing what it really wants. Also worried HBO is trying too hard to have another show with the success of GoT.
Definitely interested in Bernard's story. How long can he cover up his host-ness.
 
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I think after ‘figuring it all out’ by last season’s finale, I feel more aware of the time jumps used to throw off the audience. I’m also not sure I want to spend a season on Bernard’s arc.
 
Agreed with some altered carbon thrown in for good measure. They may have lost me if there wasn’t anything else to do while i live life in my underwear.
I nearly abandoned it several times in S2, and again after episode 1 of this year. I have no interest in watching sentient robots take revenge against random rich people, which was all it seemed to be. Last week was better. This week finally turned it. I like POI. Never watched AC.
 
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I nearly abandoned it several times in S2, and again after episode 1 of this year. I have no interest in watching sentient robots take revenge against random rich people, which was all it seemed to be. Last week was better. This week finally turned it. I like POI. Never watched AC.

I’m not spoiling AC by saying the premise is that ppl keep their memories on disks called Stacks. Those can then be inserted into the spine/neck of any organic body called a Sleeve. And boom you live on to eternity in different bodies or the same one cloned over and over. Sound familiar yet?
 
I nearly abandoned it several times in S2, and again after episode 1 of this year. I have no interest in watching sentient robots take revenge against random rich people, which was all it seemed to be. Last week was better. This week finally turned it. I like POI. Never watched AC.

wait so 'this week finally turned it' = not worth it?