What proof did you identify? I may need to rewatch, but I took the last episode as dismantling the theory more than supporting it.
Westworld
- Thread starter Midas Mulligan
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Very cool. Thanks.
I have questions about the timeline theory. I see small holes in it, not enough to fully discredit it but that need answering. I haven't seen them addressed in any of the articles discussing it and I'm wondering if anyone has answers for them. This is all from memory. I don't have time to go back and rewatch so if the answer is "You missed, forgot, or misremembered something" that's exactly what I'm looking for.
1. Under the theory, Delores has an awakening 30 years ago. She leaves her loop, develops consciousness, and starts acting heroic instead of as a damsel to be saved. But today she is back in that same loop with no apparent change. We know that because she interacts with MIB in one of those loops. But we've also seen that when Hosts start acting funny the behaviorists usually fix things by repurposing them in completely different loops, or retiring them altogether. Why is Delores different? Why was she just put back in the exact same loop? Why isn't anyone today talking about the Delores incident of 30 years ago?
2. Delores goes off her loop because Teddy isn't there one night to keep her on her loop. Under the single timeline theory we are led to believe this is because Teddy has been reprogrammed by Ford with a new backstory that takes him off loop which is why he wasn't there. It just seems a little convenient that the same exact thing happened 30 years ago.
3. When Delores is with William in the supposed past timeline she sometimes hears a voice in her head which is generally thought to be Arnold, who left some sort of post-mortem programming in some of his creations. But Arnold was presumably alive in the old timeline and that should not have kicked in yet.
4. Also, didn't we see William interact with Maeve as a Madame? Wasn't she a frontier woman 30 years ago?
FWIW, before I read about the 2 timeline theory I was on my own suspecting that the narrative was playing with time, but I was thinking it was all in roughly the same single year time period. You can definitely see how they can be showing us things out of order and manipulating our expectations. I'm not rejecting the 2 timeline theory, but it does seem it requires a fair amount of "just so" undisclosed facts to make it work. I hate those sorts of plot crutches and Nolan is usually better than that.
2. Delores goes off her loop because Teddy isn't there one night to keep her on her loop. Under the single timeline theory we are led to believe this is because Teddy has been reprogrammed by Ford with a new backstory that takes him off loop which is why he wasn't there. It just seems a little convenient that the same exact thing happened 30 years ago.
3. When Delores is with William in the supposed past timeline she sometimes hears a voice in her head which is generally thought to be Arnold, who left some sort of post-mortem programming in some of his creations. But Arnold was presumably alive in the old timeline and that should not have kicked in yet.
4. Also, didn't we see William interact with Maeve as a Madame? Wasn't she a frontier woman 30 years ago?
FWIW, before I read about the 2 timeline theory I was on my own suspecting that the narrative was playing with time, but I was thinking it was all in roughly the same single year time period. You can definitely see how they can be showing us things out of order and manipulating our expectations. I'm not rejecting the 2 timeline theory, but it does seem it requires a fair amount of "just so" undisclosed facts to make it work. I hate those sorts of plot crutches and Nolan is usually better than that.
What I think may have happened;
1. Why is she different? Total speculation- She could be a test that they had, in regards to seeing how hosts reacted to alterations in their stories and how they would react. Maybe the original head-person(s) were willing to throw her into an unknown pit/story and see how they react. Maybe she reacted well, at least from a data standpoint, that they just let her continue on in her same loop once their "test" was done.
2. Agreed, but maybe MIB knew what would happen with her off of her usual loop as well as how to get her off that road (off-looped?). Does seem convenient.
3. Is Arnold definitely alive in the old timeline? Maybe he died just before that storyline happens. I may have missed it, but all we know is that Arnold died in some way, not necessarily meaning he was alive in that other timeline.
4. I have no idea on this point, I don't really remember that much about Maeve and her previous story.
2. Agreed, but maybe MIB knew what would happen with her off of her usual loop as well as how to get her off that road (off-looped?). Does seem convenient.
3. Is Arnold definitely alive in the old timeline? Maybe he died just before that storyline happens. I may have missed it, but all we know is that Arnold died in some way, not necessarily meaning he was alive in that other timeline.
4. I have no idea on this point, I don't really remember that much about Maeve and her previous story.
Thanks,Schwallacus. Also, from what I since found
by googling "did William meet Maev" it seems the did not. He only interacted with the other prostitute in the saloon. This makes me think -- at the very least -- that the writers want us to think about the 2 timeline theory, because that would be pretty random otherwise.
Awesome finale. I think this show is the dog's bollocks.
Are we assuming that Maeve is operating on free will by going back for her daughter?
Will the androids start repairing themselves? Does that mean armistice and hector can come back?
Will they kill the rest of the workers?
Why do we have to wait a year for more episodes?
Will the androids start repairing themselves? Does that mean armistice and hector can come back?
Will they kill the rest of the workers?
Why do we have to wait a year for more episodes?
jerseyhotspur
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a part of me wished they could have ended the series with the season finale, so the show runners don't have a chance to ruin the show.
Agreed, Once you reveal the conspiracies and the motivations of the various human players I am afraid we have nothing mind bending left. Hoping I'm wrong but bracing for endless backstories.a part of me wished they could have ended the series with the season finale, so the show runners don't have a chance to ruin the show.
I'm disappointed, which seems to be a minority opinion, not just here, but generally. I don't want to be a killjoy so I won't go into the details of why I ended up so annoyed with the whole thing. It's just an opinion and if you enjoy the show good for you. But to try answer one of Tom in Fairfield CT 's questions:
I think we should conclude that mave is acting on free will when she gets off the train. We were both told and shown that the escape plan was programmed into her, most likely by Ford. her protestations when she was shown that were meaningless at the time, because she continued to act fully consistent with them until that moment. For her to deviate requires either that she develop true free will, or that there is some yet more secret programming we have not been shown. because option 2 is to bad I prefer to presume we're working on option 1.
jerseyhotspur
Registered
is Maeve's "daughter" the same little girl who told William (as the man in black) that the "maze isn't for you"? And if so, I'm guessing Maeve's "daughter" is one of the sentient hosts?
is Maeve's "daughter" the same little girl who told William (as the man in black) that the "maze isn't for you"? And if so, I'm guessing Maeve's "daughter" is one of the sentient hosts?
Doesnt look like it to me.
I'd like to hear what your opinion is.
I love that William has basically built his life around being "scorned"/"forgotten" by Dolores
jerseyhotspur
Registered
DOH!
Doesnt look like it to me.
i disagree. When Bernard was trying to show Mave she was programmed to escape, he also started to tell her what she's does when she gets on the train and Mave destroys his tablet before he has the chance. I think she was programmed to return as well. Why? I guess we'll find out next year.
Quote from adam
My follow up:
My follow up:
So which robots have true self-awareness and consciousness then? Delores, I guess. Except she still seems to be infected with the Wyatt mass murder virus so how free is she really. Bernard? Are there even any other potential candidates. Maeve's two accomplices were acting under her control so not them.
Will take a day or two to have time to write it up in a paragraph or 2 that is coherent and not excessively rambling.
I could see why a programmer would want her to escape, or to cause the diversion, but not why she would need to be programmed to return. you could have stopped her a million times with programming prior to getting on the train. I'm thinking she's an example of a droid that gained consciousness on her own, rather than by being coached along by ford.
i think you're confusing. Awareness/consciousness and self control. We humans do things every day we'd like to not to. That doesn't mean we're not conscious of that's fact or self aware of who we are and what we desire. And once we accomplish whatever task we had to do, we're either free to do what we want or have something else we have to do next.
I'd like to stay up all night watching TV. But my body forces me to sleep. I can't stay up all night if I tried (unless there was some type of emergency and my adrenaline kicked in). Am I "programmed" to sleep? And because I sleep, am I not self aware?
I'd like to stay up all night watching TV. But my body forces me to sleep. I can't stay up all night if I tried (unless there was some type of emergency and my adrenaline kicked in). Am I "programmed" to sleep? And because I sleep, am I not self aware?
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