Home - September 23 - Toronto (Postgame)

[Brooklyn Blue]

There seems to be two sides.. one who are all on Ronny and his poor management being the cause of our woes and the other just putting it simply that we can't finish. Why isnt it both?

Imho, Ronny's poor player selection is the reason we can't finish. How do you expect players to get into form if they don't play? And of all our players it's the attackers who see the field the least. For all Ronny's bullshit about attacking, he seems much more interested in defending and his subs and player selection shows this.

He puts ring on the wing cause he knows ring will track back and ring does. At times he's basically a wing back on a 5 man back line. You wouldn't see mitri doing this because mitri would be upfield waiting for the outlet to start the counter. Instead taty was there by myself isolated with two CBs, which will never work.

Are we dominating games? Sure. We are passing well lately for the most part but we still struggle against any kind of high pressure. TFC are a good squad but anyone could see they weren't playing like they can. Our domination has been against teams who are happy to let us have the ball or just art up to high press us like tfc tonight.

Who can blame any of them? We are unable to break a bank of defenders down with anything but crosses from the width. And we can't finish. Why would any team be afraid of our attack? They look at ring at wing and they laugh at us.

I'm not gonna say we played poorly tonight. We didn't. For the most part, everyone played pretty well everywhere except the final third.

For all his hard work and improvement over last year, Medina doesn't deserve to start. He's not a true threat. Mitri or isi need to start. Gary works hard but also not a proven scorer so he needs to sit too. There's no reason either of them start over mitri, isi, and taty. NO Reason!

I forget who said it but gudi is not good going forward. He's serviceable at best.. maybe Ben sweat caliber. But he's been good on defense which is his first priority so I can't complain. With mata's form this year, I prefer him to start though.

Unlucky for cacha. His face said it all. Hope the guys gave him a good talk to let him know it's ok.

Refs have sucked the last few games. I don't understand how they aren't being reprimanded for obviously poor calls. Tatys yellow and oral warning were ridiculous and changed the game.

Agreed. It can be both.

However, we have seen this group of players finish previously (see, 2019). We have - to this point - not seen convincing evidence of good management by Deila.

With respect to Ring tracking back, there is no doubt that he does. Wouldn't it be better if he was already back? Moving Ring to wing on occasion to surprise teams could be a back pocket tactic, but consistently playing him there is a waste of one of the best defensive midfielders in MLS. It is analagous to playing aa gold glove centerfielder at shortstop. Ring may be able to survive, but better to let him thrive.

Johnson
Tinnerholm - Chanot - Callens - Mataritta
Ring - Sands
Parks (or Medina)
Tajouri-Shradi - Castellanos - GMS (or Mitrita)

How does that not make sense to anyone that has watched this team the past 18 months?

 

[moogoo]

Agreed. It can be both.

However, we have seen this group of players finish previously (see, 2019). We have - to this point - not seen convincing evidence of good management by Deila.

With respect to Ring tracking back, there is no doubt that he does. Wouldn't it be better if he was already back? Moving Ring to wing on occasion to surprise teams could be a back pocket tactic, but consistently playing him there is a waste of one of the best defensive midfielders in MLS. It is analagous to playing aa gold glove centerfielder at shortstop. Ring may be able to survive, but better to let him thrive.

Johnson
Tinnerholm - Chanot - Callens - Mataritta
Ring - Sands
Parks (or Medina)
Tajouri-Shradi - Castellanos - GMS (or Mitrita)

How does that not make sense to anyone that has watched this team the past 18 months?

That's my point. We have players who can and have proven they can finish, yet Ronny doesn't play them. We don't finish cause the right players aren't on the field in the final third.

It is simple. We can't finish. But the reason for that is because our finishers are on the bench only coming ok for small shifts and unable to get match fit or in form.

That is on Ronny.

 

[Fantazma]

If Heber tore his ACL, isn’t he done for most of next season as well?

yes, just trying to be hopeful for him.

 

[bjb]

Agreed, where is the Ronny Deila who arrived telling us he wanted to attack and win games 5-4? After watching us slog through this season, I'd much rather watch our team lose 3-4 than watch another 0-0 draw or fluke 0-1 loss with our best offensive players on the sideline for majority of the match. Let ISI play! Let Taty play! Let Mitri play! The same lineup is rolled out every match without results. Let's experiment and try to score some goals and see what happens!

 

[ZYanksRule]

Same story once again. We look great but can't finish. I think some of it is on Ronny for his weird player management, some of it is on the players for poor execution, and part of it is just poor luck. But we're now 13 games into a 23-game season, and it's just not going well enough. I'm starting to wonder whether Ronny makes it to 2021. He probably does because aside from what's happening in San Jose I don't think any coach deserves to be fired this season, but I can't imagine the front office is any happier than we are. This team has unquestionably gone in reverse.

Wishing the best to Heber. That did not look good. Hopefully it's not what it looked like, but when a player is crying on the field, he normally knows what happened..

 

[Annagram]

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Ring made over 40 of his 44 Finland national team appearances as a RM, often acting as a wing-back. He's got plenty of experience from that. Like nearly all talented youngsters, he played in a much more attacking role as a junior. Even at Kaiserslautern he was often deployed as a RM, and at times even as a RB. I'm sure the same kind of versatility is a part of each NYCFC players' past. That's not saying he should play LW, because his best position is right in front of the CB line.

I still question the wisdom of not strengthening the side before this broken season. It is all the more clear now that both Maxi and Héber are out injured. I have a feeling that this team will break apart after this season. It already looks stitched up with no long time plan, partly because of too often changing head coaches, but also because the director of sports (or what's his title) changed, too. This might be due to the whole club being so young.

 

[ZYanksRule]

Ring made over 40 of his 44 Finland national team appearances as a RM, often acting as a wing-back. He's got plenty of experience from that. Like nearly all talented youngsters, he played in a much more attacking role as a junior. Even at Kaiserslautern he was often deployed as a RM, and at times even as a RB. I'm sure the same kind of versatility is a part of each NYCFC players' past. That's not saying he should play LW, because his best position is right in front of the CB line.

I still question the wisdom of not strengthening the side before this broken season. It is all the more clear now that both Maxi and Héber are out injured. I have a feeling that this team will break apart after this season. It already looks stitched up with no long time plan, partly because of too often changing head coaches, but also because the director of sports (or what's his title) changed, too. This might be due to the whole club being so young.

Not sure I agree with that -- they've locked up the majority of the spine to long-term contracts. I do not think this is the last kick of the can for this group of players.

 

[danger]

No, I'm saying that if Ronnie says at the press conference that we played well for most of the game and lost to a fluke penalty, then I'll agree with him. Because that's what happened. Doesn't mean I like the guy, agree with his team selection, or think we couldn't have done any better tonight (see my first post). But I'm not going to pretend we were total dogshit and didn't create any proper chances just because we didn't convert any and lost to a random penalty. Maybe xG or whatever stat we're using these days will back you up, but I doubt it.

Again, you're being obtuse and intentionally misreading and even misstating what I said. Going back to the 58' build-up I outlined, the point was that it WAS a chance, even though it would not count under a "shot on goal" statistic, and I'm not even sure it would count under xG. But I'm counting it and I imagine Ronny would count it. It was GOOD buildup. But if the player you get around the ball on that chance is Ring, then I don't expect a goal unless it's a very high probability chance. (I also acknowledged a weak point of this argument is that, as Lion said, it could have been one pass too many and perhaps the fault lies with Tinnerholm passing it to Ring rather than shooting himself.)

My point about xG was that of the games prior to Toronto, the stats do not show we are creating any more chances that mediocre teams. But I actually did concede that we created chances against a completely uninspired Tornto side. However, if Ring (who has the second highest xG on the team, 2.4 after Heber's 3.2, including now the Toronto game) is required to score goals, I don't think we're going to convert as many as other goal-scoring players on the team. And on the other wing, I don't understand GMS over other available players either. Nor do I understand why 4-2-3-1 is the formation if that is the line-up that must be fielded to accommodate it, because I don't think it matters how many times we can build-up good chances, there isn't anyone up front who can score

 

[Kenny]

In addition to the above, they are not playing fast enough. On the attack in particular, they often look like they aren't sure what to do next. They take an extra touch or two instead of a quick forward pass, or cross, or shot. That is at least partially, but IMO mostly or even entirely, on the coaching staff.

 

[ManhattanValley]

Again, you're being obtuse and intentionally misreading and even misstating what I said. Going back to the 58' build-up I outlined, the point was that it WAS a chance, even though it would not count under a "shot on goal" statistic, and I'm not even sure it would count under xG. But I'm counting it and I imagine Ronny would count it. It was GOOD buildup. But if the player you get around the ball on that chance is Ring, then I don't expect a goal unless it's a very high probability chance. (I also acknowledged a weak point of this argument is that, as Lion said, it could have been one pass too many and perhaps the fault lies with Tinnerholm passing it to Ring rather than shooting himself.)

My point about xG was that of the games prior to Toronto, the stats do not show we are creating any more chances that mediocre teams. But I actually did concede that we created chances against a completely uninspired Tornto side. However, if Ring (who has the second highest xG on the team, 2.4 after Heber's 3.2, including now the Toronto game) is required to score goals, I don't think we're going to convert as many as other goal-scoring players on the team. And on the other wing, I don't understand GMS over other available players either. Nor do I understand why 4-2-3-1 is the formation if that is the line-up that must be fielded to accommodate it, because I don't think it matters how many times we can build-up good chances, there isn't anyone up front who can score

You've lost me I'm afraid. I'm not here to argue about what constitutes a chance, or whether we could have put a better lineup out there (I agree with you). To go back to your original quote:

My guess is that Deila deflects at the press conference, or gets a pass, because of the Heber injury and he'll say we played well for 85 minutes and the penalty was a fluke. But I don't agree with that

The team that Deila put out wasn't perfect, but nevertheless played well enough to win the game. Happens all the time (lord knows it happened to Dome). But because we disagree with Ronny's definition of a chance and a few of his team selections, we expect him to ignore that at the press conference and instead offer up the deepest of bows in apology?

Ronny can mismanage the team and still make them play well. The team can play well and still lose. I don't have to be ecstatic about it, but it sure as hell happened last night. The reverse can often be true too. If you want to avoid giving people a pass, save your outrage for the games where we play badly, rather than the games where we lose.

 

[danger]

The team that Deila put out wasn't perfect, but nevertheless played well enough to win the game. Happens all the time (lord knows it happened to Dome). But because we disagree with Ronny's definition of a chance and a few of his team selections, we expect him to ignore that at the press conference and instead offer up the deepest of bows in apology?

Ronny can mismanage the team and still make them play well. The team can play well and still lose. I don't have to be ecstatic about it, but it sure as hell happened last night. The reverse can often be true too. If you want to avoid giving people a pass, save your outrage for the games where we play badly, rather than the games where we lose.

I think we are probably in agreement on a lot more than our replies suggest, but it's just miscommunication over a board that wouldn't happen if we were chatting in person. I don't expect an apology from Ronny, but I do expect tough questions from reporters (the kinds of questions I assume someone like Jake Nisse would ask, for example, based on his last two articles in the Post). But I my suspicion was that those questions wouldn't be asked, and that even if they were, Deila would focus on the injury and the unfortunate penalty. So we continue as is until there is space for analysis of what I think are more fundamental issues across all our games as opposed to two weird things that happened in this particular game

Edit: here's the post-match

 

[gbservis]

In addition to the above, they are not playing fast enough. On the attack in particular, they often look like they aren't sure what to do next. They take an extra touch or two instead of a quick forward pass, or cross, or shot. That is at least partially, but IMO mostly or even entirely, on the coaching staff.

I agree, the fast passing system that Vieira installed and Dome built upon was exciting and unique in all of MLS. Ronnie appears to sadly be letting all that work slip away. When Vieira first arrived and talked of installing a play from the back at all costs system nearly all of the MLS talking heads said it was impossible with MLS level talent. Vieira clearly drilled the crap out of it in training, he preached patient when we gave up some howlers in transition early, even saying get used to it these things will happen with this system but trust me it will work. I even remember it freaking fans out, there was a guy behind my seats Vieira's first season that would get totally wound up when SJ and the CBs would start pining the ball around the back. After about 2 passes the guy would start shouting kick the ball, kick that ball upfield, I think Vieira almost gave that poor guy a heart attack every game. All of our players got comfortable with it and proved they were more than capable of playing that way. Dome came in a built on the foundation with more dynamic tactics but he kept the general style in place and leverage the abilities. It's really hard to watch this slow plodding system and not be sad. You wonder if Ronnie doesn't know his team well enough to understand what they are capable of or does he just not care because that's not how his system works?

 

[moogoo]

They actually posted Ronny's post game press conference sooner rather than later (which usually happens after a loss)

He didn't actually focus on the penalty. He talked about it in response to a question but it was a mention and criticism of the hand ball rule and then moved on.

He said he thought we played well for 70 mins but lost focus for the final 20 (which is when he sent on all the subs at once). It's not unexpected that we'd lose our rhythm with a few new players on that late in the game.

The majority of his press conference was harping on finishing our chances. Even Ronny acknowledges that finishing is the issue but fails to realize that the players he puts on the field are not proven finishers (aside from Heber). Our attackers are good but they work best in combination with each other. Much like how Liverpool's front 3 are most dangerous together and not so much when it's just one of them despite having the rest of the team in tact.

Perhaps with Heber's injury and pressure to start scoring, he'll play more attackers and slide ring back into his defensive mid role to give us the backup we need.

Personally I think our guys are playing with more intensity now than they did last year. We certainly seem to commit a lot more fouls pressing than we did last year. Just a gut feeling. I could be wrong as I haven't looked at the stats.

Everyone seems to acknowledge we need to finish our chances. My opinion is we aren't finishing cause the right attackers aren't on the end of the final passes. Chances are there but I think we'd create more, high quality chances and finish them if we played our primary attackers more. They need to get match fit and they need to find their form. No way to do that without actual game time.

 

[LionNYC]

You have to imagine that Heber has received an MRI already on his knee. How long will the club take to announce his injury status?

 

[moogoo]

You have to imagine that Heber has received an MRI already on his knee. How long will the club take to announce his injury status?

Took them a few days to let us know anything about Maxi. I imagine we won't know anything until tomorrow during pregame press interview

 

[Kenny]

I'm sorry but this "finishing" business is a cop-out to me. What does it even mean, really? Last year we averaged almost 2 goals per game, this year less than 1. With mostly the same group of players. Have they gotten worse, as players? Unlucky? Sure you could attribute some of it to pandemic rust and general weirdness. But if you watch the games it is clearly more than that. They are not being put in positions to be successful. I mean that both in terms of formation, and tactically, i.e. practicing passing sequences and off-ball movement.

 

[ManhattanValley]

You have to imagine that Heber has received an MRI already on his knee. How long will the club take to announce his injury status?

Knowing us/MLS, he'll probably be listed for Saturday as: Questionable (torn ACL)

 

[Shwafta]

What was our total expected gX last year? Were we well overperforming? Curious if we are just regressing back to the mean, or if this is way worse than that

 

[moogoo]

I'm sorry but this "finishing" business is a cop-out to me. What does it even mean, really? Last year we averaged almost 2 goals per game, this year less than 1. With mostly the same group of players. Have they gotten worse, as players? Unlucky? Sure you could attribute some of it to pandemic rust and general weirdness. But if you watch the games it is clearly more than that. They are not being put in positions to be successful. I mean that both in terms of formation, and tactically, i.e. practicing passing sequences and off-ball movement.

Same group of players as a team but not as starting lineup. Bringing on 3 attackers with 20 mins to go when most of them have barely played this season isn't gonna magically create goals. GMS and Medina aren't proven goal scorers. They are working hard and I give them credit for that, but we need goals. They need to sit and our proven scorers need to be given time to find their form.

 

[ZYanksRule]

Took them a few days to let us know anything about Maxi. I imagine we won't know anything until tomorrow during pregame press interview

"The team" never said anything about Maxi. Ronny just said it was a knee ligament during a press conference, and he's the one that gave the 4-6 week timetable. It would be nice for an official team release to come out with some real specifics, because we still don't know what exactly Maxi's injury is other than right knee ligament and 4-6 weeks.

So based on that, I doubt we hear anything until Ronny's press conference tomorrow.