2019 Forums H2H League & Pigeon Cup

[adam]

I count 12 already. I’d say we do it if we can get to a solid 16. Perfect number would be 20.

1. Me
2. You
3. Shwafta
4. danger
5. FredMertz
6. JayH
7. LionNYC
8. dummyrun
9. SoupInNYC
10-11. Midas Mulligan +1
12. mgarbowski (assumed)

Fred JR?

 

[adam]

I don't see the point of Pro-Rel here.

I can see having 2 leagues with different buy-ins because some people want to wager more and some less. That was what we tried originally. But given that, why have a system that forces people who want to wager more into the lower one because they had a bad year? In the other direction, it's an even bigger problem to force people who prefer the low spend into the bigger one.

I get that people are trying to fix the inactive player problem. I doubt this works and adds unnecessary distortions instead.

Pro is technically free if you use this system. If they don’t get relagated for next years buyin round they can choose demotion and next in line based on record gets promotion.

Relegation incentivizes the big better not to fall back and have a smaller prize to play for based on his original larger wager. If they are late to the game and have to start in lower league, then the gambler in them sees they can win more on a smaller bet if they play smart. And next year they can gamble more from the start. I’ll start a poll.

 

[FredMertz]

I count 12 already. I’d say we do it if we can get to a solid 16. Perfect number would be 20.

1. Me
2. You
3. Shwafta
4. danger
5. FredMertz
6. JayH
7. LionNYC
8. dummyrun
9. SoupInNYC
10-11. Midas Mulligan +1
12. mgarbowski (assumed)

Fred JR?

Fred JR is a fantasy premier league snob.

 

[mgarbowski]

Pro is technically free if you use this system. If they don’t get relagated for next years buyin round they can choose demotion and next in line based on record gets promotion.

Relegation incentivizes the big better not to fall back and have a smaller prize to play for based on his original larger wager. If they are late to the game and have to start in lower league, then the gambler in them sees they can win more on a smaller bet if they play smart. And next year they can gamble more from the start. I’ll start a poll.

So wait, if you get relegated, then next year you still have a big ante but can only win a smaller prize? Count me out. The whole game is basically random anyway except for a handful of pros who somehow actually are good at it. You're punishing people twice over for bad luck. I don't waste my money that way. It's a fucking pool. What happens when someone gets relegated and just doesn't joint the next year because he refuses to pay a big ante for lower winnings? If people are so annoyed by the inherent unfairness of late season matchups then switch to a straight points league.

 

[JayH]

So wait, if you get relegated, then next year you still have a big ante but can only win a smaller prize? Count me out. The whole game is basically random anyway except for a handful of pros who somehow actually are good at it. You're punishing people twice over for bad luck. I don't waste my money that way. It's a fucking pool. What happens when someone gets relegated and just doesn't joint the next year because he refuses to pay a big ante for lower winnings? If people are so annoyed by the inherent unfairness of late season matchups then switch to a straight points league.

Yeah, I don't think we need to complicate things with relegation. Why don't we just gently remind folks if they start neglecting their team, if it's a pattern beyond the occasional missed deadline. Let's just keep this fun and simple.

 

[adam]

So wait, if you get relegated, then next year you still have a big ante but can only win a smaller prize? Count me out. The whole game is basically random anyway except for a handful of pros who somehow actually are good at it. You're punishing people twice over for bad luck. I don't waste my money that way. It's a fucking pool. What happens when someone gets relegated and just doesn't joint the next year because he refuses to pay a big ante for lower winnings? If people are so annoyed by the inherent unfairness of late season matchups then switch to a straight points league.

Maybe I'm not being clear. We're using terms year and season interchangeably. Let me try again. Here's what I envision. (this is without accounting for Cup winnings and payouts are just for example).

Let's use Team 7 as an example to start. They paid $75 for the year Spring and Fall. They got relegated in the Spring by finished bottom 2 in League 1. But then they won League 2 in the fall and promoted back to League 1. Next year they would pay $75 again for the year (spring and fall) if they so choose.

How about Team 8. They paid $75 to be in League 1, but finished dead last in Spring. Then they still didn't do well and finished 7th in League 2 in Fall. Next year they have to start in League 2 for $50 for both Spring and Fall fee.

Team 9. They paid $50 to enter league 2. Won that in the Spring. Earned auto promotion to League 1 for Fall. Finished 2nd in League 1 and therefore a larger winnings then they would have as 2nd place in League 2. Next year they would have to pay $75 to start in League 1. If they don't want to, they can move back into League 2 for next year at $50 and we give Team 11 the opportunity to start in League 1 for $75.

This make more sense?

 

[LionNYC]

I don't think the weekly payment would be difficult. At the end of the year, each win equals a certain payout. A potential draw would split the money.

 

[mgarbowski]

Maybe I'm not being clear. We're using terms year and season interchangeably. Let me try again. Here's what I envision. (this is without accounting for Cup winnings and payouts are just for example).


View attachment 9525

Let's use Team 7 as an example to start. They paid $75 for the year Spring and Fall. They got relegated in the Spring by finished bottom 2 in League 1. But then they won League 2 in the fall and promoted back to League 1. Next year they would pay $75 again for the year (spring and fall) if they so choose.

How about Team 8. They paid $75 to be in League 1, but finished dead last in Spring. Then they still didn't do well and finished 7th in League 2 in Fall. Next year they have to start in League 2 for $50 for both Spring and Fall fee.

Team 9. They paid $50 to enter league 2. Won that in the Spring. Earned auto promotion to League 1 for Fall. Finished 2nd in League 1 and therefore a larger winnings then they would have as 2nd place in League 2. Next year they would have to pay $75 to start in League 1. If they don't want to, they can move back into League 2 for next year at $50 and we give Team 11 the opportunity to start in League 1 for $75.

This make more sense?

I think I get it. I still hate it. Assume you successfully manage to discourage all late season slackers in the first half and everyone plays to their full ability. Now you're just punishing people even more for bad luck over a half year of games. Oh, did you guess poorly the first 3 weeks of the season as to who would be good this year? Then you never recovered because your budget sucked? And then you look forward to your fresh start in the second half season? Too bad, you can't win anything worthwhile.

Yeah, that's not exactly going to make me pay attention to my roster in late August - September so the top 4 players have better competition.

 

[Shwafta]

My thoughts on this: pool of $75./person assuming 17MD for spring, we do 50*Person/17 for whoever gets the most points that week. Maybe ever allocate a first and second place pot instead.
And then allocate the rest as a small bonus gfo winning the league

 

[LionNYC]

Raise the buy in to $100?

 

[adam]

I think I get it. I still hate it. Assume you successfully manage to discourage all late season slackers in the first half and everyone plays to their full ability. Now you're just punishing people even more for bad luck over a half year of games. Oh, did you guess poorly the first 3 weeks of the season as to who would be good this year? Then you never recovered because your budget sucked? And then you look forward to your fresh start in the second half season? Too bad, you can't win anything worthwhile.

Yeah, that's not exactly going to make me pay attention to my roster in late August - September so the top 4 players have better competition.

IDK, I'd argue that. First, if we use your system it's a 16 team table. We'll probably only pay out the top 4-5 teams (+ Cup winner). So if you have a rough start and find yourself in 15th-16th place, there's almost nothing to play for the rest of the way. At least in pro-rel the bottom 4 teams in league 1 are fighting to avoid that relegation spot (which is similar to the last place penalty proposed, except no money is ever taken from someone after the fact, they can only win a little less in the second half; which I feel is MUCH more fair). Furthermore, in your system we payout the top 1/3-1/4 of the league, in my system half the league gets something back each season. There's a much greater chance of winning something "worthwhile" in the pro-rel system. Both monetarily and because there would be double the League champions. League 2 champ (with auto pro), would be nothing to sneeze at. Wow, this is really becoming like MLS, arguing agains a pro-rel system!

 

[FredMertz]

IDK, I'd argue that. First, if we use your system it's a 16 team table. We'll probably only pay out the top 4-5 teams (+ Cup winner). So if you have a rough start and find yourself in 15th-16th place, there's almost nothing to play for the rest of the way. At least in pro-rel the bottom 4 teams in league 1 are fighting to avoid that relegation spot (which is similar to the last place penalty proposed, except no money is ever taken from someone after the fact, they can only win a little less in the second half; which I feel is MUCH more fair). Furthermore, in your system we payout the top 1/3-1/4 of the league, in my system half the league gets something back each season. There's a much greater chance of winning something "worthwhile" in the pro-rel system. Both monetarily and because there would be double the League champions. League 2 champ (with auto pro), would be nothing to sneeze at. Wow, this is really becoming like MLS, arguing agains a pro-rel system!

Or we could not completely over complicate a simple thing and add a $50 fine for the last place team.

 

[adam]

Or we could not completely over complicate a simple thing and add a $50 fine for the last place team.

We could, but then you have teams 7-14 with nothing to play for towards the end. that's over half the league. (you also get into that after the fact penalty issue, I don't really like doing to someone). In the pro-rel system, the only teams I can see with nothing to play for would be 6-8 in league 2 if they are that far behind. And the system is not even that complicated.

 

[dummyrun]

Or we could not completely over complicate a simple thing and add a $50 fine for the last place team.

Fine quitters in Dan Bucks.

 

[adam]

Fine quitters in Dan Bucks.

The fantasy equivalent of GAM.

 

[adam]

I want to elaborate on the payout system. Last year we had 12 teams. This year we may have 16. Last year we paid the top 3 teams, toward the end of the season HALF the league was out of contention to make any money and had no incentive besides the Pigeon Cup to set their lineup. This year if we have 16 teams and pay out the top 4, the problem could get even worse.

With Pro-Rel, maybe only the bottom 2-3 teams in League 2 would have nothing to play for toward the end of the season. EVERY other team would have something at stake, be it money, relegation, or promotion (or a little bit of both). It's much more engaging. It also pays out 50% of the league, vs 25%, so double the chance of winning when some people claim it's too chance dependent.

 

[Sabo]

I think MLSsoccer is having trouble with their fantasy rollout. The season is just a week away. There is a 2019 page up on the website with no links to join -- maybe later today.

 

[Sabo]

I was right. Fantasy Launched but the Create a League is not working. Stay tuned.

 

[LionNYC]

I was right. Fantasy Launched but the Create a League is not working. Stay tuned.

Leagues are open to make!

I'm already in 7.

 

[danger]

Sorry all, I mistook this as the non-H2H forum league