Used to be you had to kill someone and eat their flesh to get a city cop to walk across the street. Clintons 3 strikes and Guilianis military police tactics changed the rules and the city
Hudson River Blue Piece On Yankee Stadium Security
- Thread starter einwindir
- Start date
The cops in most Westchester towns live there or close by. Most NYC cops live in the outer suburbs and are the kids of 60's and 70's white flighters cops. Different mindset when the kid you bust is in your kids class or on his soccer team. suburban cops are much more likely to take a 15 year old back to his parents and tell them they have to pay for the broken window than arrest the kid and start a record for him.
NYCFCinABNY
Registered
I know you don't realize it but both of those things are violations that are at least "summonsable". So yes, you where unknowingly doing a few things wrong. I understand you where out there having a good time and didn't mean any harm but the NYPD might not look at it that way. I'll tell you what they see, someone yelling, causing everyone else to yell and is about to slip, fall and crack their head open.
Next time, you should tell them your parents pay their salary, that will usually get them to lighten up.
Works everytime! Be sure to also:
- remind them that you know your rights
- ask if you are being detained
- request to not be tazed, bro
You first sentence says otherwise. You should not have been on the pillar.
jerseyhotspur
Registered
And of course, since this is NYC, then said person who was standing, chanting and having a good time on said pillar will then turn around and file a multi-million dollar lawsuit against NYCFC, Yankee Stadium, NYPD, the City of New York, Securitas for failing to provide adequate crowd control and protection that resulted in his injuries.
Ahab_Flanders
Registered
I agree with you that it shouldn't be an us vs. them type thing, but in this case it's pretty clear that these two were singled out and arrested just because they were the two holding an SG flag. Here's a longer video showing them picked out of a large crowd while doing nothing significantly different from those around them. And I know that the two have said that they received no warning or earlier contact from police.
So as an insider, please explain based on this video what the two who were arrested did differently from the hundreds of other people that were also in the (closed off) street (other than just happening to be the two who made nice targets since they were holding the flag).
NYCFCinABNY
Registered
Not an insider but sometimes in situations like this the police try and identify the biggest "agitator" in the crowd, separate them from that crowd or just make an example out of them and arrest them. Two guys holding a flag in the middle of the street is an easy target because of the attention they are drawing.
This incident is a distraction from the real issue. We don't have a stadium and the Yankees and the community around Yankee stadium don't want us there.
BTW, why does the club put up pictures on their official site promoting smoke bombs in the supporters section yet security/PD is looking to lock up those who are involved? Does anyone else see the disconnect between what the club wants and what Yankee stadium wants. Mixed messages sent by the club are going to get a lot more supporters in trouble.
There's a HUGE disconnect from the information I've been gathering. NYCFC is not at all happy with the Yankee's tactics, or the NYPD's outside the stadium (which might be the result of the Yankees urging). If that's really the case, then the Yankees are not being very good landlords or partners. Hence my call to MOVE CITY TO CITI!!!! I used this example in another thread:
Imagine you have a business partner also owns your office and you pay him rent. Then when your clients come over this partner of yours harasses your clients and throws them out of the office for no reason. Wouldn't you consider disbanding the partnership and finding a new office? Especially if there is another potential partner who you could share and office with and his office is next to a vacant lot you could build your own new office at with his permission? Permission you sought in the past, but were denied because your current partner is basically, well a DICK. It's a win-win if NYCFC has the balls to pull it off.
That article is way too long to read. What is the issue? Folks getting kicked out of the Supporters Section for cursing? If so, that's lame as hell. I'm against having folks cursing like sailors, but in the general sections where families are sitting. I think in the SS section it should be allowed. If you go there with kids, then that's your problem. You should know better.
But this all stems from the points that @NYCFC_Dan and @Tom in Fairfield CT make above. The Yanks are enforcing this stuff. Don't blame the cops or the security guards. They're just following orders. The Yankees don't understand soccer culture. To them this is scary shit. Baseball fans are lame, and just sit there. Soccer fans go wild, which is one of the reasons I love the game so much.
We need our own stadium, ASAP.
But this all stems from the points that @NYCFC_Dan and @Tom in Fairfield CT make above. The Yanks are enforcing this stuff. Don't blame the cops or the security guards. They're just following orders. The Yankees don't understand soccer culture. To them this is scary shit. Baseball fans are lame, and just sit there. Soccer fans go wild, which is one of the reasons I love the game so much.
We need our own stadium, ASAP.
This is a great post and provides good perspective. I do have one question. Why the lack of communication from the police? Why aren't there any clearly articulated limits on behavior? The fans were celebrating around each other, having a good time, and had no idea they were doing anything that could be construed as negative. There was no call before the arrests for people to get to the side of the street. The same is (apparently) true of the person pulled down from the pillar. He wasn't told to get down; he was just pulled down.
I totally understand and agree with your points about how easily crowds can get out of control, and I also have no view that this is some conspiracy.
I do think there are two sides that don't completely understand each other. I think communicating expectations will go a long way. Without that, you will have random incidents that provoke resentment on both sides, and that could lead to bad outcomes for everyone.
Honestly, the supporters groups should offer to sit with the police and discuss how this can all work better.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that there always seems to be two separate celebrations happening, one on river ave in the street under the train tracks where they arrests took place and one across the street from the main gate on the large sidewalk area outside of heritage park. The NYPD always seems focused on the group on river street. Have they bothered the other group over near heritage park? Maybe its just a matter of location, seems like it would be worth it to shift locations and see if things improve. I don't see any reason why it has to be in the street under the train.
Ahab_Flanders
Registered
That's absolutely what happened, but the question is, was it justified? NYPD decided they wanted to clear out the people who were celebrating on the closed off street, so without any prior warning they pick out two guys with a flag, drag them to a car and cuff them on the hood while other vehicles pull up with their lights flashing. Then they go and shut down the bar. All this without any prior warning or communication.
It seems like it is a perception issue. The NYCFC fans think they are peacefully celebrating in a closed off street and expect to be treated as such, while the cops think it is the beginnings of a riot and so they crack down as if that were justified.
Edit:
That's absolutely what happened, but the question is, was it justified? NYPD decided they wanted to clear out the people who were celebrating on the closed off street, so without any prior warning they pick out two guys with a flag, drag them to a car and cuff them on the hood while other vehicles pull up with their lights flashing. Then they go and shut down the bar. All this without any prior warning or communication.
It seems like it is a perception issue. The NYCFC fans think they are peacefully celebrating in a closed off street and expect to be treated as such, while the cops think it is the beginnings of a riot and so they crack down as if that were justified.
Edit:
Totally agree with you that its a perception issue. I can attest as someone standing at the entrance of the bar the moment they were told to close that when the officer told the bouncer to close and the bouncer asked why the officer acted like it couldn't have been more obvious. In the officers mind there was something clearly dangerous happening in the street.
Also, thanks for the perspective and congrats on 1000 posts.
PD_4_NYCFC
Registered
Alright, I'll try to tackle all your points in the time I have this morning!
Respectfully, that's conjecture at best.
I may be cynical, but I don't expect any other response from them! It could be there was prior contact, it could be they were singled out as agitators, for whatever reason, or the cop wanted to make an example of them. These white shirts don't do any of the paper work, so some poor cop got stuck with it and probably couldn't go home on time to his kids!
Joking aside, there is enough in that video to justify probably one or two violations under the disorderly conduct statute for most everyone there. Granted, I wasn't there so even from my "insider" point-of-view, I an only speculate based on experience and not the facts of that time, at that moment. Nor can I judge the cops' actions since I'm not privy to any information they may have had at the time.
A lot, A LOT gets overlooked at these "let outs" be they at sports events, concerts, even night clubs at last call. Sometimes, people need to know certain sh*t won't be tolerated and that arrests may occur. Yes, sometimes that entails grabbing a few of the main people. I know it sounds tantamount to "targeting", but as mentioned above, more than enough exists for a basic dis con charge, which doesn't even result in a criminal record. That's rooted in the right of police to use discretion. The alternative is everyone gets arrested, or no one does. Neither of those are good ideas. One of the basic tenets of crowd control is as follows: keep the crowd moving. When crowds gather and stay put, that's when sh*t tends to hit the fan, and that's when cops may cease overlooking things or being friendly.
One thing I'd like to add, is that these cops are not new to YS events. These are the same ones who deal with dozens upon dozens of Yankee games per year, along with the myriad of other events. One cop may have had his/her warnings ignored en masse over time, so he/she has decided to stop issuing them (warnings are a courtesy). Others may have taken a more light-handed approach, and seen it lead to nothing but disorder. Others may have the opposite experience, and only come into contact with those who cause no problems and listen, so they continue with that approach. Hence, members of the public can have two encounters with police resulting in two different attitudes by the cops involved. Nature of the beast, I suppose.
On that first line, YES! Second, security at YS is paid by YS and follows YS rules. There are plenty of mixed messages and it comes down to your first point: they don't want us there.
Agreed, 100%. Sometimes, it can be difficult to explain the rules of engagement to hundreds of people, especially when that group may be unexpected. I've also noticed one thing: Yankee game let-outs lead to large crowds who for the most part, keep moving. Soccer culture is new to the area, new to the community. The post-game party atmosphere of soccer is viewed by what people in America see as hooliganism abroad. Fear of the unknown, if you will. So when communities see things like this, they make assumptions.
Someone mentioned in a prior post that talking to a precinct commander and community affairs goes a long way, and that could not be a more accurate statement. Police priority #1: 911 calls. Priority #2: precinct complaints/concerns. If a commander has a bunch of people tell him/her at a council meeting they're tired of people running a particular stop sign, you can bet you'd see stepped-up enforcement at that sign.
The supporters should reach out, no question. Then the expectations of the police can be relayed. Those who fail to abide, well, then that's on them. I will say this, though. The residents of the precinct are the kings and queens. They get priority in these complaints. If they gather together and say "we're tired of these NYCFC scumbags making noise", unfortunately that will be taken more seriously than a supporters group explaining their objectives. This is all such a fine line, and as much as I'd like to see it resolved, I know that this community makes a fuss about everything that involves YS events. My answer would be..don't f'in move there! This stadium has been there for decades (including the old one), you know what you're getting. However, that wouldn't be a PC statement.
Perhaps one area garners more complaints than the other...that may be a reason. Don't know for sure, though.
While it may not seem justified, it is. While a warning if often in order, sometimes it isn't, and a lot of it is left up to the officer(s) in question. It leaves some ambiguity, but the courts have held time and time again that a lot of crowd control situations deteriorate rapidly and police departments are given leeway to handle them, within reason. This is low on the scale of "is it justified?". Kettling is way more controversial.
The best advice I could give is to keep moving while you celebrate. Congregating in large groups is the first-step that can lead to negative police attention. While there will always be instances of police tactics viewed as aggression or against "innocent" people, there is usually always some sort of reason behind it. If you truly feel you've been targeted unreasonably, that's what the courts are for. There's no shortage of attorneys willing to take on your case on even the slightest of merits.
I've been part of these festivities both as a fan and as a cop. I assure you that most cops there just want to go home. Trust me, if you were to see the other side, you'd understand. Since you all can't, I hope I've done my best to describe it reasonably.
-M
Respectfully, that's conjecture at best.
I may be cynical, but I don't expect any other response from them! It could be there was prior contact, it could be they were singled out as agitators, for whatever reason, or the cop wanted to make an example of them. These white shirts don't do any of the paper work, so some poor cop got stuck with it and probably couldn't go home on time to his kids!
Joking aside, there is enough in that video to justify probably one or two violations under the disorderly conduct statute for most everyone there. Granted, I wasn't there so even from my "insider" point-of-view, I an only speculate based on experience and not the facts of that time, at that moment. Nor can I judge the cops' actions since I'm not privy to any information they may have had at the time.
A lot, A LOT gets overlooked at these "let outs" be they at sports events, concerts, even night clubs at last call. Sometimes, people need to know certain sh*t won't be tolerated and that arrests may occur. Yes, sometimes that entails grabbing a few of the main people. I know it sounds tantamount to "targeting", but as mentioned above, more than enough exists for a basic dis con charge, which doesn't even result in a criminal record. That's rooted in the right of police to use discretion. The alternative is everyone gets arrested, or no one does. Neither of those are good ideas. One of the basic tenets of crowd control is as follows: keep the crowd moving. When crowds gather and stay put, that's when sh*t tends to hit the fan, and that's when cops may cease overlooking things or being friendly.
One thing I'd like to add, is that these cops are not new to YS events. These are the same ones who deal with dozens upon dozens of Yankee games per year, along with the myriad of other events. One cop may have had his/her warnings ignored en masse over time, so he/she has decided to stop issuing them (warnings are a courtesy). Others may have taken a more light-handed approach, and seen it lead to nothing but disorder. Others may have the opposite experience, and only come into contact with those who cause no problems and listen, so they continue with that approach. Hence, members of the public can have two encounters with police resulting in two different attitudes by the cops involved. Nature of the beast, I suppose.
On that first line, YES! Second, security at YS is paid by YS and follows YS rules. There are plenty of mixed messages and it comes down to your first point: they don't want us there.
Agreed, 100%. Sometimes, it can be difficult to explain the rules of engagement to hundreds of people, especially when that group may be unexpected. I've also noticed one thing: Yankee game let-outs lead to large crowds who for the most part, keep moving. Soccer culture is new to the area, new to the community. The post-game party atmosphere of soccer is viewed by what people in America see as hooliganism abroad. Fear of the unknown, if you will. So when communities see things like this, they make assumptions.
Someone mentioned in a prior post that talking to a precinct commander and community affairs goes a long way, and that could not be a more accurate statement. Police priority #1: 911 calls. Priority #2: precinct complaints/concerns. If a commander has a bunch of people tell him/her at a council meeting they're tired of people running a particular stop sign, you can bet you'd see stepped-up enforcement at that sign.
The supporters should reach out, no question. Then the expectations of the police can be relayed. Those who fail to abide, well, then that's on them. I will say this, though. The residents of the precinct are the kings and queens. They get priority in these complaints. If they gather together and say "we're tired of these NYCFC scumbags making noise", unfortunately that will be taken more seriously than a supporters group explaining their objectives. This is all such a fine line, and as much as I'd like to see it resolved, I know that this community makes a fuss about everything that involves YS events. My answer would be..don't f'in move there! This stadium has been there for decades (including the old one), you know what you're getting. However, that wouldn't be a PC statement.
Perhaps one area garners more complaints than the other...that may be a reason. Don't know for sure, though.
While it may not seem justified, it is. While a warning if often in order, sometimes it isn't, and a lot of it is left up to the officer(s) in question. It leaves some ambiguity, but the courts have held time and time again that a lot of crowd control situations deteriorate rapidly and police departments are given leeway to handle them, within reason. This is low on the scale of "is it justified?". Kettling is way more controversial.
The best advice I could give is to keep moving while you celebrate. Congregating in large groups is the first-step that can lead to negative police attention. While there will always be instances of police tactics viewed as aggression or against "innocent" people, there is usually always some sort of reason behind it. If you truly feel you've been targeted unreasonably, that's what the courts are for. There's no shortage of attorneys willing to take on your case on even the slightest of merits.
I've been part of these festivities both as a fan and as a cop. I assure you that most cops there just want to go home. Trust me, if you were to see the other side, you'd understand. Since you all can't, I hope I've done my best to describe it reasonably.
-M
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Lets not forget that if an officer doesn't like how you spoke to them, looked at them, didn't respond to them, or any other minor transgression they can have you cuff up and detain you for a little bit. PC is as hard to come up with on a report as the sun rising in the morning.
I really do wish there were prior contact. I didn't know where he was even coming from. I never tried to resist him. I was respectful. I can't say the same about NYPD in that situation. Calling me a drunk, calling me an asshole, etc. I had thought being in the street was ok because it was always allowed in prior games, and NYPD made no announcement otherwise. If he had just said "please get on the sidewalk" that would've happened ASAP. I probably would've helped spread the word to keep moving and get off the streets.
Now I don't know when you were cuffed but when the cars came down the block they put over the loudspeaker to get out of the street. I don't know when you were cuffed but it was said then and repeatedly by cops clearing the street. It was said maybe you didn't hear it.
