Timeline

[NYCBlue]

I'm one of the people who want to see the cosmos fold so I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. Maybe others feel differently. Their fans don't deserve us doing them favors.
I guess there's a reason you oversee our involvement in charity and I don't

I just think that if this sport is to be successful in this country then it needs (1) to be successful at every level and (2) have passionate (and hateful if you'd like ) rivalries. But that's a different conversation and of course just a small part of what we need to make the sport successful.

 

[MrE]

I'm one of the people who want to see the cosmos fold so I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. Maybe others feel differently. Their fans don't deserve us doing them favors.
I guess there's a reason you oversee our involvement in charity and I don't

Hello BxLio91

I am completely anti Manchester United so I understand how you feel... but.......

Can you explain why you have the hatred of Cosmos. As NYCFC are a new team there is no direct history between the two. So your feelings obviously come from somewhere. As I am new to the American sports scene I know little history (save Tueart and Pele played for them) so why ?

Interested in order to understand the dynamics that will affect NYCFC in future, thank you

 

[MrE]

We have the MLS101 section (inside the MLS forum) for just this type of question. I wrote quite a lengthy post answering this exact question inside that forum.

http://nycfcforums.com/index.php?threads/drafts-101.410/

Ok I read that, and very informative it is, but if NYCFC decided to buy, beg or borrow its own players could i (in principle at least) decide to say pass on any and every draft (a least in theory)

Could NYCFC decide to develop its own players, maybe signing 8-10 year olds as is common practice in Europe.

Is there a maximum non nationals a squad can have ? (Not saying America does not have enough good enough players)

 

[BxLio91]

Hello BxLio91

I am completely anti Manchester United so I understand how you feel... but.......

Can you explain why you have the hatred of Cosmos. As NYCFC are a new team there is no direct history between the two. So your feelings obviously come from somewhere. As I am new to the American sports scene I know little history (save Tueart and Pele played for them) so why ?

Interested in order to understand the dynamics that will affect NYCFC in future, thank you

If you have free time, go on Empireofsoccer.com, bigsoccer forum, reddit etc. and search NYCFC. When you're done, let me know if you can see why I wish them nothing but the worst.

 

[MagnusPax]

Is there a FIFA date in January or February? That would be the only window where a Euro team would travel here.

And to be honest, MCFC really can't be flying here for a Friendly. I could see the reserve squad doing that though.

My guess is we play the Cosmos, a Mexican squad and have a Friendly against an Argentinian or Brazilian side. Possibly a game down in Orlando against those guys.

Did Falastur's post answer your question?

Who cares about the Cosmos.

 

[Falastur]

Ok I read that, and very informative it is, but if NYCFC decided to buy, beg or borrow its own players could i (in principle at least) decide to say pass on any and every draft (a least in theory)

Could NYCFC decide to develop its own players, maybe signing 8-10 year olds as is common practice in Europe.

Is there a maximum non nationals a squad can have ? (Not saying America does not have enough good enough players)

Yes they can do so, and the indications are that NYCFC fully intends to have a proper academy which it will use to populate some of its squad. However, it's not quite as simple as it is in Europe. For a start, to sign a youth player you have to go through MLS still, asking MLS to give them a contract and then sign them through the allocation process. In order to avoid other teams stealing your youths you have to designate them one of your 'discovery' picks on them. Thing is, you only get 10 discoveries at a time, and that includes players you have "protected" for the future, even if you don't intend to sign them straight away. Importantly, this even applies to players coming out of your own academy. This may seem anathema, but you have to remember that MLS is set up specifically to be the epitomy of an anti-monopoly league - this even extends to stopping teams from being able to monopolise recruiting young players via a source no other team can match.

As for domestic and foreign players - MLS allows each team to have a quota of 8 foreign players. However, as with virtually everything in MLS, it also allows teams to trade these "international slots" to other teams for players/allocation money/Draft picks/etc. Therefore it is possible to have more than 8 foreign players but the league as a whole can never have more than 8 x (total # clubs).

 

[MrE]

Yes they can do so, and the indications are that NYCFC fully intends to have a proper academy which it will use to populate some of its squad. However, it's not quite as simple as it is in Europe. For a start, to sign a youth player you have to go through MLS still, asking MLS to give them a contract and then sign them through the allocation process. In order to avoid other teams stealing your youths you have to designate them one of your 'discovery' picks on them. Thing is, you only get 10 discoveries at a time, and that includes players you have "protected" for the future, even if you don't intend to sign them straight away. Importantly, this even applies to players coming out of your own academy. This may seem anathema, but you have to remember that MLS is set up specifically to be the epitomy of an anti-monopoly league - this even extends to stopping teams from being able to monopolise recruiting young players via a source no other team can match.

As for domestic and foreign players - MLS allows each team to have a quota of 8 foreign players. However, as with virtually everything in MLS, it also allows teams to trade these "international slots" to other teams for players/allocation money/Draft picks/etc. Therefore it is possible to have more than 8 foreign players but the league as a whole can never have more than 8 x (total # clubs).

Ok all that is understood,

What is the point of NYCFC buying any marquee signings (not end of career players) such as (say) Messi if they do not own the player. If I understand you correctly
1. NYCFC (or MLS team) sign a Marquee player (say £30 million)
2. His contract is then held by the MLS
3. He plays for NYCFC
4. A some point he goes in to the pool (or maybe not)
5. NYCFC decided to move him on (or he wants to go)
6. The MLS have to agree to sell him
7. The transfer fee goes to ( MLS or NYCFC ?)
8. Profit / loss is apportioned to (MLS or NYCFC)

How does it all work

I am seriously thinking CFG should have bought a NASL team and kept charge of there own contracts / youth.

 

[MrE]

No wonder there is no relegation if the league control the owners investment.
Never have I heard such codswallop. (Sorry Falastur / Americans, this not aimed at you)
I struggled to get my head around the concept of fans supporting other EPL teams (managed to do that now thanks guys) but this has just blown my tiny mind to pieces.

 

[MrE]

Jesus, I am now starting to think FFP in Europe is reasonable compared to this.
How the F*!K anyone can tell a club owner what he can and cant spend his money on is beyond me.

I own a bar, if I want to improve my bar I spend my money, whether it is money I have made in the business or any other source.

If the chap down the road wants to improve his bar he does the same.

I cannot complain that he is spending too much money on his bar nor he me.
__________________________________________________________________
This is where FFP ends up, stopping people spending money to improve there bar.
_______________________________________________________________
If I do my bar up, my bank manager will not make me share my assets or profit with other publicans and nor should they.

This is where the MLS ends up, its a stage further than FFP.

Please convince me I am wrong, because if I am not I walk away from any MLS team for good. It appears to be communistic to the highest degree.

 

[BxLio91]

It's the way American sports are. Pretty ironic for a country that tightens up its anus when the word communist is uttered isn't it?

 

[Vinjay]

It's the way American sports are. Pretty ironic for a country that tightens up its anus when the word communist is uttered isn't it?

Yes but the key long term difference there is MLS can't afford to stay stuck inside its own bubble. Other American sports only need to compete with each other MLS actually has more competition (internationally) than any of them. MLS has had no choice but to adopt such measures considering the collapse of previous US leagues. Not to mention the total collapse of two founding MLS teams since its inception and San Jose who had to completely rebuild. It does not matter how much money one club has if the league structure is vulnerable. The old Cosmos proved that. As time goes on and UEFA still impose this FFP nonsense (years from now) it might even be the complete opposite.

 

[MrE]

So y

Yes but the key long term difference there is MLS can't afford to stay stuck inside its own bubble. Other American sports only need to compete with each other MLS actually has more competition (internationally) than any of them. MLS has had no choice but to adopt such measures considering the collapse of previous US leagues. Not to mention the total collapse of two founding MLS teams since its inception and San Jose who had to completely rebuild. It does not matter how much money one club has if the league structure is vulnerable. The old Cosmos proved that. As time goes on and UEFA still impose this FFP nonsense (years from now) it might even be the complete opposite.

So you are saying that you think in the future the clubs (therefore the owners) will be more free to run there business to there strategy.

In the short term I believe (after thinking about it this morning) that the young players (development squad) will not belong to any of the teams but to the CFG. The CFG will have them competing (maybe locally) in other leagues (I can see perhaps a NYC Accademicals) playing in the NASL (perhaps) or other league until the players are ready to step up (free transfer) to the MLS, Premier league, j league (or whatever). Otherwise CFG will sell them, release them etc but will maintain control and tell the MLS where to stuff there draft rulebook.

We are geting a bit off topic for the main thread, does this debate deserve its own thread ? If so please make one.

 

[Vinjay]

So y

So you are saying that you think in the future the clubs (therefore the owners) will be more free to run there business to there strategy.

Absolutely. Provided the league growth is sufficient then how else could it ever become one of the best leagues in the World? Especially with the chances of FFP being over turned in courts of law, regime change or a total UEFA collapse (if they were stupid enough to let some kind of breakaway happen) The "powers that be" at NYCFC are probably operating with that eventual long term goal in mind. Beckham's group are certainly in favour of the wage cap ultimately being demolished though its too simplistic to suggest it should be imminent.

 

[Falastur]

Ok all that is understood,

What is the point of NYCFC buying any marquee signings (not end of career players) such as (say) Messi if they do not own the player. If I understand you correctly
1. NYCFC (or MLS team) sign a Marquee player (say £30 million)
2. His contract is then held by the MLS
3. He plays for NYCFC
4. A some point he goes in to the pool (or maybe not)
5. NYCFC decided to move him on (or he wants to go)
6. The MLS have to agree to sell him
7. The transfer fee goes to ( MLS or NYCFC ?)
8. Profit / loss is apportioned to (MLS or NYCFC)

How does it all work

I am seriously thinking CFG should have bought a NASL team and kept charge of there own contracts / youth.

DPs are exempt from those rules. DPs are exempt from virtually everything in MLS, they are the royalty of the league to the regular players' peasantry. If it weren't that way, the clubs would mutiny. They care as much about jealously holding DP rights as you do.

 

[MagnusPax]

One thing I think some of you are missing (although this is a great discussion) is that NYCFC and more accurately ManCity and the Yankees don't really "own" NYCFC, they own part of MLS with the rights to manage the club thats in NYC. As such, it isn't MLS vs NYCFC for decisions or ownership. When we say MLS owns the player contracts (ie Messi) ManCity/Yankees actually control the players right that is owned by MLS (which they co-own with the other MLS club investors).

Yes its a little complicated, but this is how pro soccer has survived in the US where previous attempts have failed. In fact MLS almost went belly up several times before 2005 when their byzantine system started working.

 

[MagnusPax]

Ok all that is understood,

What is the point of NYCFC buying any marquee signings (not end of career players) such as (say) Messi if they do not own the player. If I understand you correctly
1. NYCFC (or MLS team) sign a Marquee player (say £30 million)
2. His contract is then held by the MLS
3. He plays for NYCFC
4. A some point he goes in to the pool (or maybe not)
5. NYCFC decided to move him on (or he wants to go)
6. The MLS have to agree to sell him
7. The transfer fee goes to ( MLS or NYCFC ?)
8. Profit / loss is apportioned to (MLS or NYCFC)

How does it all work

I am seriously thinking CFG should have bought a NASL team and kept charge of there own contracts / youth.

Not sure of your last claim, which is the basis of the Cosmos argument.

However a good example of what you are asking (although not exactly the same) is SKC who just sold MF Oriol Rosell to Sporting Lisbon in Portugal. They sold him for $1.5 million. MLS (the League) got 1/3 or $500k but SKC got $1,000,000. Now in theory KC have just pumped up their cap "free space" and can use that 1 million for player acquisition, which won't effect their cap.

Does that help?

 

[Kjbert]

If you guys are seriously concerned about an NASL team such as the Cosmos, you have serious problems.

The Cosmos don't matter. I recommended that we play them in a Friendly because it is CONVENIENT. No one cares about them. If you want to be concerned about someone, be concerned about the NYRB who have a brand new stadium.

And no, I don't think my question was answered in regards to there being a FIFA date in January or February.

 

[Kjbert]

I am OK with the MLS system. Look into how the NFL grew. It was a similar format (some similarities to this day in regards to revenue sharing). Overall, it's healthier for the league. We'll do just fine, don't worry.

And yes, we will grow our own home grown talent, it will just take a few years, but we have aligned ourselves with the best Youth programs in the greater NY area. We just took over the Chelsea program here in Westchester County.

 

[MrE]

So in basic laymans terms

Someone has sold Sheikh Mansoor (on of the great business minds and sports club owners)

One thing I think some of you are missing (although this is a great discussion) is that NYCFC and more accurately ManCity and the Yankees don't really "own" NYCFC, they own part of MLS with the rights to manage the club thats in NYC. As such, it isn't MLS vs NYCFC for decisions or ownership. When we say MLS owns the player contracts (ie Messi) ManCity/Yankees actually control the players right that is owned by MLS (which they co-own with the other MLS club investors).

Yes its a little complicated, but this is how pro soccer has survived in the US where previous attempts have failed. In fact MLS almost went belly up several times before 2005 when their byzantine system started working.

So in basic laymans terms

Someone has sold Sheikh Mansoor (on of the great business minds and sports club owners) the equivalent of McDonalds.

He buys a player for 30 million
He sells him for 40 million

He gets back 27 million
The MLS get back 13 million with no outlay.

It cannot work in a free society.

I but a bar for 300'000
I sell it for 400'000
I give my bank 130000 because they lent me the money

I walk away with 270000

It is wrong, surely you can see that.

 

[MagnusPax]

I'm not sure, but you sound like someone who already knew all this and just have an ax to grind.

This is the way MLS is and has been for many years. If CFG and the Yankees didn't understand it, its their fault for not doing their due diligence. However I suspect that they are more interested in being involved with MLS and the growth of American/Canadian pro soccer and see this as not only the best way to do it but also a way to be in charge of the NYC market, the largest in the US.