White Supremacists In Supporter Section

[QuigrNYCFC]

So, just that I'm reading this clearly, this is pretty much what's going on (please correct me if I'm wrong, want to make sure I'm on the same page here as everyone else as I post nonsensical gifs throughout):

Everyone here is in agreement that Nazis are bad.

1. Some people here believe they should be out right banned altogether from the stadium for being Nazis/outside incidents/arrests.

2. Some people here believe they should be allowed in the stadium, but not in the SS and have their rights revoked to any supporter group privileges. (Away day tickets, team events, etc.)

3. Some people here believe they should be left as is because the team shouldn't be policing their fans for political/ideological beliefs, even those as morally skewed as Nazism.

Would this all be a pretty accurate summarization of the conversation at hand here? If so, I pose the following questions and would appreciate a well thought out response, just so I can get a better understanding of peoples ideas on the subject:

If you fall into group 1, how do you propose to identify and ban these people? I understand that some have been identified, but others surely haven't. How would you propose to find out who is a Nazi and who isn't?

If you fall into group 2, how do you purpose the team enforces this? Have a name list of known Nazis so that they cannot access tickets/team events? Have uniformed officers in the supporters section going around with pictures looking for people who don't belong there?

If you fall into group 3, how do you propose the team can make fans in the SS feel safer? Obviously, this is an issue because people do not feel safe for one reason or another (acts of intimidation, just the thought of having Nazis near them making them afraid, etc.)

Wading into this argument since it's a slow day at work.

I'm in camp 1 and to your question I would say that YS and NYCFC can sell tickets to anyone willing to buy them but they can also revoke your ticket and kick you out of the stadium for any reason they see fit.

My hopefully common sense thoughts below:
- Anyone wearing hateful paraphernalia should be kicked out.
- Anyone saying hate speech during games should be kicked out.
- Anyone in a hate group that NYCFC is aware of shouldn't be let in.
(The team should do an audit of these fan groups and identify offenders for the simple fact that the stadium should be safe)
- Anyone that intimidates anyone for any reason (proto-facist or not) should be kicked out.

I find this whole thing insane considering that NYCFC prides themselves on diversity and fosters an open and accepting environment. If you believe in the exact opposite of that, why would you bother supporting the team and furthermore why would you bother with MLS which is probably one of the most culturally diverse and openly progressive leagues in the world.

 

[NYCFC_Dan]

You’re right, my apologies. I just happened to witness it firsthand and forgot not everyone here was right there too, I’ll look for an article now

We’ve had dicks in Ss. We’ll continue to have dicks there. There’s a big difference with someone getting thrown out/banned for doing dickish things and what we’re talking about. I do remember that happened to a guy 2 seasons ago and he was arrested.

 

[adam]

1) it is a choice. Why can’t you remove it? Is it an article of clothing or something connected directly to your body that cannot be removed? You choose not to remove it. That is a choice.

2) I don’t have issue with your entire point here. As I said earlier, this was one of the most sensible things I’ve read this far. However, as you pointed out, they have not done anything inside the stadium. You being uncomfortable isn’t justification for someone to be tossed. I understand that’s not what you specifically called for, but that is the point I’ve been making with others here. I don’t understand why we’re even debating that because it seems we both agree to that point

I'm glad we agree on #2.

As for #1: Most my family died in the Holocaust for wearing it. They died in the Russian Pigrams for wearing it. They died in the Inquisition for wearing it. They died at the hands of the Ottomans, Romans and Greeks for wearing it. In a couple weeks we celebrate the holiday of Purim where the Persians tried to kill us for wearing it. It's not a choice, at this point it's a blood oath to all who came before me.

 

[Kjbert]

I love this version of adam

 

[dkalev2]

Why can’t someone making another spectator feel unsafe a good reason to remove them from the stadium?

Keyword “feel” unsafe. Not actually unsafe.
Didn’t we have this whole “kids don’t belong in the SS because we rowdy they don’t belong here” argument years back? That literally sets the precedence for this. Feel unsafe on the SS, sit somewhere else. Same rules as back then.

 

[Schwallacus]

Why can’t someone making another spectator feel unsafe a good reason to remove them from the stadium?

Can I ask for someone to be removed because I don't like their cough? What if they have some incredibly infectious disease that can wipe out my immune system/body if I contract the virus? Where does the line start or stop?

What if your son starts swinging his new supporters flag around and it gets caught on my newly pierced nipples? You're okay to stay, but your son can be removed or banned for putting my health in danger? Are you going to pay for my new surgically repaired nipple?

(Note; my nipples are not pierced. Merely a shitty example)

 

[dkalev2]

We’ve had dicks in Ss. We’ll continue to have dicks there. There’s a big difference with someone getting thrown out/banned for doing dickish things and what we’re talking about. I do remember that happened to a guy 2 seasons ago and he was arrested.

Yet the outcry isn’t nearly the same for those who actually do do dickish things (hell people end up blaming security) vs someone who literally has done nothing in the stadium to anyone

 

[Kjbert]

Keyword “feel” unsafe. Not actually unsafe.
Didn’t we have this whole “kids don’t belong in the SS because we rowdy they don’t belong here” argument years back? That literally sets the precedence for this. Feel unsafe on the SS, sit somewhere else. Same rules as back then.

What’s the difference ?

 

[dkalev2]

I'm glad we agree on #2.

As for #1: Most my family died in the Holocaust for wearing it. They died in the Russian Pigrams for wearing it. They died in the Inquisition for wearing it. They died at the hands of the Ottomans, Romans and Greeks for wearing it. In a couple weeks we celebrate the holiday of Purim where the Persians tried to kill us for wearing it. It's not a choice, at this point it's a blood oath to all who came before me.

I understand that 100%. 4/5s my lineage gone for the same exact reasons, however it is still a choice. However attached you are to it, push comes to shove, it is able to be removed which makes it a conscious choice. I have had the same Star of David necklace on my neck since I received it on the day of my bar mitzvah. It is my choice to never take it off. Using the analogy of a blood oath, if I make a blood oath with a person and we become “blood brothers”, were still not actually brothers despite us considering ourselves that way. It is still a choice. Now if you Were born with it bound to your skull to the point where removing it will be medically harmful to your physical well being, then you have an argument. But until that happens, it is indeed a choice. A blood oath is a choice, not a necessity.

 

[Kjbert]

Can I ask for someone to be removed because I don't like their cough? What if they have some incredibly infectious disease that can wipe out my immune system/body if I contract the virus? Where does the line start or stop?

What if your son starts swinging his new supporters flag around and it gets caught on my newly pierced nipples? You're okay to stay, but your son can be removed or banned for putting my health in danger? Are you going to pay for my new surgically repaired nipple?

(Note; my nipples are not pierced. Merely a shitty example)

There’s a difference between a bad human being deciding to live his life in open chaos and my allergies.

 

[Kjbert]

I understand that 100%. 4/5s my lineage gone for the same exact reasons, however it is still a choice. However attached you are to it, push comes to shove, it is able to be removed which makes it a conscious choice. I have had the same Star of David necklace on my neck since I received it on the day of my bar mitzvah. It is my choice to never take it off. Using the analogy of a blood oath, if I make a blood oath with a person and we become “blood brothers”, were still not actually brothers despite us considering ourselves that way. It is still a choice. Now if you Were born with it bound to your skull to the point where removing it will be medically harmful to your physical well being, then you have an argument. But until that happens, it is indeed a choice. A blood oath is a choice, not a necessity.

Here’s the deal. His Star of David isn’t a hate symbol.

Your argument boils down to a choice of wearing something that represents hate speech and adam wearing a religious symbol.

Yes. It is a choice. But he shouldn’t ever have to worry for his safety by wearing it.

And if he feels unsafe because he wears it, then NYCFC has already lost the script. They have the ability to protect him. They’re just choosing not to.

 

[adam]

I understand that 100%. 4/5s my lineage gone for the same exact reasons, however it is still a choice. However attached you are to it, push comes to shove, it is able to be removed which makes it a conscious choice. I have had the same Star of David necklace on my neck since I received it on the day of my bar mitzvah. It is my choice to never take it off. Using the analogy of a blood oath, if I make a blood oath with a person and we become “blood brothers”, were still not actually brothers despite us considering ourselves that way. It is still a choice. Now if you Were born with it bound to your skull to the point where removing it will be medically harmful to your physical well being, then you have an argument. But until that happens, it is indeed a choice. A blood oath is a choice, not a necessity.

The Torah teaches us that you can break any rule, ANY RULE in it for your own safety (Bikuach Nefesh). Of course I can take it off, and have done so when I've felt I may be in danger for wearing it. But there's a shame that comes with that too. I'm not going to lower myself to that point for these people here. And I shouldn't be asked to. Again, I'll just sit somewhere else and not worry. And again, it really sucks I have to. But I'm not making this into a personal battle, just stating how it's created an atmosphere where I'm better off keeping my distance unless I want to hide who I am because I don't consider it a little thing to take it off.

 

[Kangaroo Jack]

The Torah teaches us that you can break any rule, ANY RULE in it for your own safety (Bikuach Nefesh). Of course I can take it off, and have done so when I've felt I may be in danger for wearing it. But there's a shame that comes with that too. I'm not going to lower myself to that point for these people here. And I shouldn't be asked to. Again, I'll just sit somewhere else and not worry. And again, it really sucks I have to. But I'm not making this into a personal battle, just stating how it's created an atmosphere where I'm better off keeping my distance unless I want to hide who I am because I don't consider it a little thing to take it off.

You guys are just arguing choice vs obligation at this point

 

[Kjbert]

You guys are just arguing choice vs obligation at this point

Do you think adam is wrong to feel unsafe in the presence of Nazis?

 

[Schwallacus]

There’s a difference between a bad human being deciding to live his life in open chaos and my allergies.

I agree, and a very large difference. But, the question still remains as to where is that line drawn to differentiate?

 

[dkalev2]

The Torah teaches us that you can break any rule, ANY RULE in it for your own safety (Bikuach Nefesh). Of course I can take it off, and have done so when I've felt I may be in danger for wearing it. But there's a shame that comes with that too. I'm not going to lower myself to that point for these people here. And I shouldn't be asked to. Again, I'll just sit somewhere else and not worry. And again, it really sucks I have to. But I'm not making this into a personal battle, just stating how it's created an atmosphere where I'm better off keeping my distance unless I want to hide who I am because I don't consider it a little thing to take it off.

Believe me I’m the last person you need to explain the Torah to, I know it inside and out. That being said, I mean I don’t believe there’s any other alternative presently

 

[Kjbert]

I agree, and a very large difference. But, the question still remains as to where is that line drawn to differentiate?

The call to violence. That’s where you draw the line. If a group of people are openly calling for violence or the persecution of others, then you draw the line.

 

[adam]

Believe me I’m the last person you need to explain the Torah to, I know it inside and out. That being said, I mean I don’t believe there’s any other alternative presently

If you know the torah so well, let's play this out: You and I agree, the best thing to do is not where my kippa in the SS. But an alternate option for me that lets me keep my kippa on and stay safe is not sit in the SS. Then the torah tells me to stay away from the SS so I'm not forced to perform an aveirah. Now I don't have a choice, do I?

(Actually I do, I can just wear the hat in my avatar (which I usually do anyway) and unless the Nazis are reading these forums, I'll be pretty safe. I'll just feel cheapened because I didn't stand up to them and wear the kippa to show I'm not afraid.)

 

[Kangaroo Jack]

Im sorry but I can’t help think of this scene. Also I love funk man, easily my favorite character, may he Rest In Peace

 

[dkalev2]

Here’s the deal. His Star of David isn’t a hate symbol.

Your argument boils down to a choice of wearing something that represents hate speech and adam wearing a religious symbol.

Yes. It is a choice. But he shouldn’t ever have to worry for his safety by wearing it.

And if he feels unsafe because he wears it, then NYCFC has already lost the script. They have the ability to protect him. They’re just choosing not to.

I mean I’m sure there are Arabs that believe my Star of David is a hate symbol. Maybe even some Catholics who follow Mel Gibson’s thought process. Safety falls to security, that is why they are there.