Domènec Torrent Appointed NYCFC Head Coach (June '18) / Mutually Agree to Part Ways (November '19)

[Ulrich]

He had the most successful season in NYCFC history. He did that with 2 DPs. He did that while playing the most congested home schedule in MLS.

So miss me with your BS about he only met expectations.

Should someone post what the MLS expectations were this year?

What's the point of a contract that lays out all kinds of financial terms from a base salary, to bonuses, to escalations, if one side is gonna cry about not being offered the opportunity to rip it up for one that's better? This is what is so fcking flawed with sports - people sign contracts all the time for guaranteed services in return for guaranteed money..... but rather than honoring the contract, they balk and either demand more or leave. That'd be fine as a single year contract, but these are typically multi-year.

So no, Dome has done nothing this year to demonstrate he deserves a raise. no hardware was gotten. no final made. sure he ended in 1st/east, but that doesn't earn a trip to the silver factory.

 

[mgarbowski]

Dome was frustrated, so I have to allow for that, but some of his complaints last night are puzzling.

Not getting a striker at the start of the season? You bring that up now? Look, I'm sure it pissed him off then and it sure had us complaining, but at this point-- what were we going to do if we had Héber in pre-season: finish more in first place than we did? Would we have been firster? Would that have helped last night, if we had an even bigger regular season point advantage over Toronto? Would that have been harder to squander in one game? The team placed itself in the best possible position to get through the Eastern Conference and then failed to win a single game. And the reason is we didn't have Héber 7 months ago? All I can see is maybe we could have challenged LAFC for first overall which would have meant home field advantage in a game we won't play because we lost last night with a full damn team.

And then the money complaints. I have to wonder if Domé even understands the MLS system. Everyone has the same budget except for DPs and the optional TAM. On the DPs, the correlation between cost and quality is limited at best. Maxi is only modestly expensive but is one of the best. Does Torrent wish we had somebody else who cost more? We spent a ton getting Mitrita and he turned out pretty good in the end. He also is the only one we hired while Torrent was here and I have to presume he had some input on that. If he didn't, then his complaints aren't really about money. And yes, Medina is both cheap (for a DP) and poor, but I don't really see a connection. Plus, as a Young DP, he freed up money to spend on the rest of the roster. And looking only at payroll, Medina is paid more than Mitrita.
As for the optional TAM, nobody on the outside has any idea of which teams are even using it and nothing pushes me to think Dóme studies up on this stuff himself. If he did, his complaint would be we left TAM money unspent, not vague generalities about being in the middle of the overall spending chart. Really, the variance in DP spending is what determines who spends the most money because even the optional TAM is limited while DP spending is constrained only by the number of slots.

And for what it's worth, Toronto had the third most highest paid DP in the league sitting in street clothes last night. Somehow they overcame that.

 

[moogoo]

Dome was frustrated, so I have to allow for that, but some of his complaints last night are puzzling.

Not getting a striker at the start of the season? You bring that up now? Look, I'm sure it pissed him off then and it sure had us complaining, but at this point-- what were we going to do if we had Héber in pre-season: finish more in first place than we did? Would we have been firster? Would that have helped last night, if we had an even bigger regular season point advantage over Toronto? Would that have been harder to squander in one game? The team placed itself in the best possible position to get through the Eastern Conference and then failed to win a single game. And the reason is we didn't have Héber 7 months ago? All I can see is maybe we could have challenged LAFC for first overall which would have meant home field advantage in a game we won't play because we lost last night with a full damn team.

And then the money complaints. I have to wonder if Domé even understands the MLS system. Everyone has the same budget except for DPs and the optional TAM. On the DPs, the correlation between cost and quality is limited at best. Maxi is only modestly expensive but is one of the best. Does Torrent wish we had somebody else who cost more? We spent a ton getting Mitrita and he turned out pretty good in the end. He also is the only one we hired while Torrent was here and I have to presume he had some input on that. If he didn't, then his complaints aren't really about money. And yes, Medina is both cheap (for a DP) and poor, but I don't really see a connection. Plus, as a Young DP, he freed up money to spend on the rest of the roster. And looking only at payroll, Medina is paid more than Mitrita.
As for the optional TAM, nobody on the outside has any idea of which teams are even using it and nothing pushes me to think Dóme studies up on this stuff himself. If he did, his complaint would be we left TAM money unspent, not vague generalities about being in the middle of the overall spending chart. Really, the variance in DP spending is what determines who spends the most money because even the optional TAM is limited while DP spending is constrained only by the number of slots.

And for what it's worth, Toronto had the third most highest paid DP in the league sitting in street clothes last night. Somehow they overcame that.

his complaints on the money, from my perspective, is that as a club, NYCFC are spending on the level of a mid-table MLS club instead of top of the table MLS club. I don't know the numbers, so not sure if this is true. But that's what i got from his complaints. and if what he's complaining about is true, then is it due to CFG being stingy or what?

 

[Kjbert]

Dome has been great all season, but he dropped the ball tonight. There were changes that needed to be made and he failed to do so. Why he chose tonight of all nights to stick to his guns is beyond me. He's been the champion of flexible formation and tactics all season long. Risking his job to ensure that he could implement such a system and tonight, when it was needed the most, he decides to let it ride on a tired Mata and a Mitri that was performing at half his potential.

I hope he stays and all this talk is just speculation because if we can continue with most of the same players, same coach, we have a chance to make something happen next year, starting with CCL. but if he leaves, well fuck... good riddens. we don't want anybody who doesn't want to be here.

Why was Maya tired? We had a bye week.

Mitrita has been our best player the last two months. He stunk tonight. It happens. Who was he supposed to play? GMS?

 

[Kjbert]

What's the point of a contract that lays out all kinds of financial terms from a base salary, to bonuses, to escalations, if one side is gonna cry about not being offered the opportunity to rip it up for one that's better? This is what is so fcking flawed with sports - people sign contracts all the time for guaranteed services in return for guaranteed money..... but rather than honoring the contract, they balk and either demand more or leave. That'd be fine as a single year contract, but these are typically multi-year.

So no, Dome has done nothing this year to demonstrate he deserves a raise. no hardware was gotten. no final made. sure he ended in 1st/east, but that doesn't earn a trip to the silver factory.

Where did you think NYCFC was going to finish this year?

 

[moogoo]

Why was Maya tired? We had a bye week.

Mitrita has been our best player the last two months. He stunk tonight. It happens. Who was he supposed to play? GMS?

Mata was tired cause he's always tired. He doesn't have very high stamina. That's just the kind of player he is and nothing is going to change that unless he decides to work on it himself at training.

And yea... why not put on GMS toward the end of the game. Fresh legs and new ideas (hopefully). GMS makes good runs and provides decent crosses from the left side. The reason the club even went after him for so long was because he was capable of moments of brilliance, just like Mitri. So why the hell not. we had nothing to lose at that point and Mitri was tired, wasn't showing much, and TFC had his number.

 

[Ulrich]

Where did you think NYCFC was going to finish this year?

I thought they were gonna suck based on Dome’s disaster last season. But that’s not relevant to whether the pineapple gets a raise.

He signed his contract last year and that’s the governing document of employment. Just as he shouldn’t be docked his base contract for failure, ie liquidated damages, he also shouldn’t be rewarded with a raise for success, at least not while the current contract is in effect. Now if Bonuses are written into it for successful milestones achieved, perfect, no problem with that. That’s the point of a contract, that Joe Blow gets paid that same base no matter what, and if he wants more, then negotiate better on the next one, and if he’s not happy then walk away per the terms stipulated in the contract for separation.

 

[JayH]

"Soccer" snobbery is our challenge. It was/is no surprise that Dome likely considers himself overqualified. He has a diamond level resume, and came to a flawed US league with weird rules, terrible officiating and a cap on spending. It was what lead to his incorrectly thinking that he had time to tinker late last season. And it has led to his thinking that it's better to get out in a hurry, even after a successful season. That sucks for us. Maybe it doesn't suck so much if we had a Cup to show for it. But we don't and it puts us in a difficult spot.

It was also the reason PV jumped. There was no chance he was an MLS lifer. In fact, there was a good chance he would not even finish out his initial contract, and he didn't.

They were/are both great coaches and did well to shape our team in the short term (or two respective short terms). But this model isn't a successful one and CFG needs to get to right/better.

 

[moogoo]

his complaints on the money, from my perspective, is that as a club, NYCFC are spending on the level of a mid-table MLS club instead of top of the table MLS club. I don't know the numbers, so not sure if this is true. But that's what i got from his complaints. and if what he's complaining about is true, then is it due to CFG being stingy or what?

found this with a quick search. not sure how accurate it is, but seems Dome is correct that we spend like a mid-table MLS club. There's no guarantee that spending MORE money produces better results, of course. But Dome should not be shutdown if he wants a player but CFG just doesn't want to spend the money (within MLS rules of course).

2019 MLS team payrolls - compiled from Spotrac.com

I keep hearing and reading articles and podcasts that talk about which team is spending how much and what their salary ranking is, but I have yet to...

www.bigsoccer.com

ETA: i have no idea why the thumbnail for this link is a bikini clad woman. not complaining, but strange.

 

[The Toe]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1187186039074578432

 

[moogoo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1187186039074578432

The quote is taken a bit out of context. the whole quote involves him talking about going back to manchester to talk to CFG. He's just alluding to the fact that IF he is not here next season, that the team is cohesive enough to take on another coach. This isn't him saying he's definitely gone. Not encouraging that he's definitely staying either.

 

[The Toe]

Interesting thought being thrown around: Dome thought he was on the way out earlier this year. Jason Kreis was given the ultimatum to make the playoffs or be gone. Was Dome also given somewhat of an ultimatum to advance or be gone?

 

[Gotham Gator]

found this with a quick search. not sure how accurate it is, but seems Dome is correct that we spend like a mid-table MLS club. There's no guarantee that spending MORE money produces better results, of course. But Dome should not be shutdown if he wants a player but CFG just doesn't want to spend the money (within MLS rules of course).

2019 MLS team payrolls - compiled from Spotrac.com

I keep hearing and reading articles and podcasts that talk about which team is spending how much and what their salary ranking is, but I have yet to...

www.bigsoccer.com

ETA: i have no idea why the thumbnail for this link is a bikini clad woman. not complaining, but strange.

The shortfall there is that these numbers do not include transfer fees. So, what we spent on Mitri, for example, isn't reflected.

 

[SoupInNYC]

ETA: i have no idea why the thumbnail for this link is a bikini clad woman. not complaining, but strange.

This is what we like to call "censored soccer chaos"

 

[Kjbert]

I thought they were gonna suck based on Dome’s disaster last season. But that’s not relevant to whether the pineapple gets a raise.

He signed his contract last year and that’s the governing document of employment. Just as he shouldn’t be docked his base contract for failure, ie liquidated damages, he also shouldn’t be rewarded with a raise for success, at least not while the current contract is in effect. Now if Bonuses are written into it for successful milestones achieved, perfect, no problem with that. That’s the point of a contract, that Joe Blow gets paid that same base no matter what, and if he wants more, then negotiate better on the next one, and if he’s not happy then walk away per the terms stipulated in the contract for separation.

Lol. You thought Dome was a disaster and thought they would suck. And then you’re not happy when he does a 180 from your expectations.

Can’t have it both ways

 

[Ulrich]

Lol. You thought Dome was a disaster and thought they would suck. And then you’re not happy when he does a 180 from your expectations.

Can’t have it both ways

Doesn’t mean he deserves a raise.

Stop moving the goal posts, and read what I wrote about his contract above. He isn’t penalized with liquidated damages for bad play, so why should he be rewarded for what he did - it was the role set out for him in his contract.

He’s not taking on a new position that would typically necessitate a raise. Perhaps a 3% cost of inflation increase is warranted. But what exactly is the reasoning to go outside of an agreed to contract at this point and ask for a raise? You’ve never addressed the fact that he’s got an executed contract in place that governs his pay scale, he’s not working based on a lapsed contract.

 

[mgarbowski]

found this with a quick search. not sure how accurate it is, but seems Dome is correct that we spend like a mid-table MLS club. There's no guarantee that spending MORE money produces better results, of course. But Dome should not be shutdown if he wants a player but CFG just doesn't want to spend the money (within MLS rules of course).

2019 MLS team payrolls - compiled from Spotrac.com

I keep hearing and reading articles and podcasts that talk about which team is spending how much and what their salary ranking is, but I have yet to...

www.bigsoccer.com

ETA: i have no idea why the thumbnail for this link is a bikini clad woman. not complaining, but strange.

That excludes fees paid and money spent on scouting or development which all go into roster cost. We spent way, way more money on the fee for Mitrita alone that most clubs spend in total. This chart is misleading if used to measure how much teams spend on their rosters even though it is the best information available. And again, the only real way to move the line on total salary spending is to spend more on DPs. You get three. Everything else is in a very tight identical budget, whose only other variation is the optional TAM which cannot move the line nearly as much as big as DPs do. Toronto has 3 of the 6 most expensive DPs in MLS and that is why they top all those salary lists. Toronto does not spend any more on the rest of their roster than we do. Their 3 DPs also include Jozy and Bradley and I don't think anybody here wishes we had them. Right now our DP situation comes down to Medina.

Saying you wish we spent more money is nothing more than an indirect and not very clear way of saying you wish we spent more on DPs. Either our DPs are good or they are not. I don't care how much they are paid. Our first 3 were expensive and ranged from outstanding to good but only played half time to quite poor. We have a somewhat similar record with the 3 less expensive DPs since then. We're also much better this year than any year when we spent $6mm+ on individual DPs. There are so many ways to dissect and criticize or commend the team's roster construction if you want to do that, but focusing on salary is like like ranking homes using construction costs and ignoring location, land acquisition, design, taxes and everything else. It's even worse because the total salary costs pretends to measure all 20+ guys but all the variation from team to team is created by 3 players.

 

[Kjbert]

Doesn’t mean he deserves a raise.

Stop moving the goal posts, and read what I wrote about his contract above. He isn’t penalized with liquidated damages for bad play, so why should he be rewarded for what he did - it was the role set out for him in his contract.

He’s not taking on a new position that would typically necessitate a raise. Perhaps a 3% cost of inflation increase is warranted. But what exactly is the reasoning to go outside of an agreed to contract at this point and ask for a raise? You’ve never addressed the fact that he’s got an executed contract in place that governs his pay scale, he’s not working based on a lapsed contract.

If you outperform tour boss’ expectations, would you ask for a raise?

 

[moogoo]

That excludes fees paid and money spent on scouting or development which all go into roster cost. We spent way, way more money on the fee for Mitrita alone that most clubs spend in total. This chart is misleading if used to measure how much teams spend on their rosters even though it is the best information available. And again, the only real way to move the line on total salary spending is to spend more on DPs. You get three. Everything else is in a very tight identical budget, whose only other variation is the optional TAM which cannot move the line nearly as much as big as DPs do. Toronto has 3 of the 6 most expensive DPs in MLS and that is why they top all those salary lists. Toronto does not spend any more on the rest of their roster than we do. Their 3 DPs also include Jozy and Bradley and I don't think anybody here wishes we had them. Right now our DP situation comes down to Medina.

Saying you wish we spent more money is nothing more than an indirect and not very clear way of saying you wish we spent more on DPs. Either our DPs are good or they are not. I don't care how much they are paid. Our first 3 were expensive and ranged from outstanding to good but only played half time to quite poor. We have a somewhat similar record with the 3 less expensive DPs since then. We're also much better this year than any year when we spent $6mm+ on individual DPs. There are so many ways to dissect and criticize or commend the team's roster construction if you want to do that, but focusing on salary is like like ranking homes using construction costs and ignoring location, land acquisition, design, taxes and everything else. It's even worse because the total salary costs pretends to measure all 20+ guys but all the variation from team to team is created by 3 players.

I don't think I said I wish we spent more money and if it came off that way, that's not what i meant. Spending more doesn't mean you get more. THat's just the nature of the beast. A superstar player in one league may not translate to MLS for whatever reason. But, I think if it comes down to DPs or getting players in that a coach wants to build his team the way he wants to do it, I think CFG shouldn't delay or deny such requests based on money.

 

[Ulrich]

If you outperform tour boss’ expectations, would you ask for a raise?

Do I also have a multi-year guaranteed contract?