It doesn't seem to me that villa does well alone, or that we have anyone on the team that can effectively play the wide midfield spots. 4231 also limits the impact our new fullbacks can have.
Better or worse, I think we are a 442 team
Formation Speculation
- Thread starter sbrylski
- Start date
Better or worse, I think we are a 442 team
Those are definitely good points. We really have to choose between two less than ideal situations - either having Villa up top by himself or leaving Pirlo alone in back without defensive support. My guess is that we want to find a role for Jacobson to stay on the field, and that's going to be in back with Pirlo.
There are plenty of options with those guys in the fold. One thing is for sure - it's going to be fun watching how it all plays out.
True, is all speculation at this point. If pirlo really needs defensive support ( I'm in the camp that says he will not) I like sbrylski Y formation. If not, I think the rotating diamond will be the best. The question is, who is the fourth midfielder, and I am afraid to see who will be chosen.
4-1-2-2. Jacobsen gets to play his natural position which is essentially a Sweeper. Hell, this team could go 3-5-2 and probably should.
I don't think we are going to see Poku start another game this year. he is not a wide player. Neither is McNamara. I actually prefer Ballouchy if Lampard is to play centrally. He's not as effective as McNamara on the attack but he's a much better two way player and has decent touch.
I don't think we are going to see Poku start another game this year. he is not a wide player. Neither is McNamara. I actually prefer Ballouchy if Lampard is to play centrally. He's not as effective as McNamara on the attack but he's a much better two way player and has decent touch.
I wish we had the CBs for a 3-5-2.
I think Angelino & Iraola would be awesome in high playing wing back roles.
They already basically do play wingback roles, in line with or above the deepest midfielders. In Angelino's two games, he wasn't even making overlapping runs, he was actually often set up in front of the midfielders so they could make runs off him.
This is another reason I want Jacobson on the field. Our fullbacks have always played super high. When Jacobson is pressing offensively, we have generally looked like shit, because we slip into a 2-4-2-2 or even a 2-6-2 like last week. Our CB's, already kind of weak, are just hung out to dry on the counter attack.
I'm not sure if it's Jacobson's fault for creeping forward some games (last week he showed up in line with Grabavoy and Ballouchy on the heatmaps) or is Kreis is actually telling him to, but we play so much better when he hangs back just in front of the CB's. He's mainly an effort player, and that's where we need his motor and physicality - he brings no technical or distribution ability to the attack.
So I would classify our most successful formation as a 3-5-2 already. It's just that Jacobson is one of the 3, and our FB's are in the 5.
I'm not shocked either. You know how Man City likes to copy Barca? Here's a great article from a few years ago I pulled up with a quick google search describing their effective formation:
The key to the high fullbacks is the deep midfielder playing defense. Think about it this way - one or two of our fullbacks or midfielders have to hang back at all times to leave three in the defense. Who would you least like to push into the attack - Iraola, Angelino, or Jacobson? I think the latter is the obvious answer. And if Jacobson isn't on the field, your options are Iraola, Angelino, or Pirlo. I don't want any of those players being cautious with contributing offensively.
Jacobson is definitely not a great option for a Sergio Busquet's CDM role, but it's probably his best position, and it's absolutely crucial to our style of play (high fullbacks providing attacking width). Let's let Pirlo play offense and not worry about coordinating runs with the fullbacks.
EDIT: I like visuals, so I'll throw this down again:
It's called a "W" defense, as you can see how the deepest five players make the shape of a "W."
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They already basically do play wingback roles, in line with or above the deepest midfielders. In Angelino's two games, he wasn't even making overlapping runs, he was actually often set up in front of the midfielders so they could make runs off him.
This is another reason I want Jacobson on the field. Our fullbacks have always played super high. When Jacobson is pressing offensively, we have generally looked like shit, because we slip into a 2-4-2-2 or even a 2-6-2 like last week. Our CB's, already kind of weak, are just hung out to dry on the counter attack.
I'm not sure if it's Jacobson's fault for creeping forward some games (last week he showed up in line with Grabavoy and Ballouchy on the heatmaps) or is Kreis is actually telling him to, but we play so much better when he hangs back just in front of the CB's. He's mainly an effort player, and that's where we need his motor and physicality - he brings no technical or distribution ability to the attack.
So I would classify our most successful formation as a 3-5-2 already. It's just that Jacobson is one of the 3, and our FB's are in the 5.
I'm not shocked either. You know how Man City likes to copy Barca? Here's a great article from a few years ago I pulled up with a quick google search describing their effective formation:
The key to the high fullbacks is the deep midfielder playing defense. Think about it this way - one or two of our fullbacks or midfielders have to hang back at all times to leave three in the defense. Who would you least like to push into the attack - Iraola, Angelino, or Jacobson? I think the latter is the obvious answer. And if Jacobson isn't on the field, your options are Iraola, Angelino, or Pirlo. I don't want any of those players being cautious with contributing offensively.
Jacobson is definitely not a great option for a Sergio Busquet's CDM role, but it's probably his best position, and it's absolutely crucial to our style of play (high fullbacks providing attacking width). Let's let Pirlo play offense and not worry about coordinating runs with the fullbacks.
EDIT: I like visuals, so I'll throw this down again:
It's called a "W" defense, as you can see how the deepest five players make the shape of a "W."
It's funny cause I was just about to post this then read your post. It's basically your W but reversed up top. Basically close to JK's preference. As much as I like AJ, he cant pass the ball well enough for me back there. I think it puts too much pressure on the CBs causing short field counters. I'd prefer the way Juve used Pirlo and I might not have an issue with AJ in the Marchisio role. With Mix on the other side and Lamp in the CAM role. I just think Pirlo is a much better CDM than AJ for that deep lying QB role.
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Keep in mind. Idk if anythings changed, but Pirlo doesn't like to play forward. He actually left Milan cause they wanted him to play a more mid field role than deep. His preference is deep and that's why he went to Juve.
Agreed. He's probably going to want to play the same role he plays on the Italian National Team.
But my proposal doesn't have him as a CAM or anything. He still sits behind the attack as a deep lying playmaker. We just also have Jacobson in as a defensive stopper.
I like this, only challenge will be getting Jacobson to stop creeping forward as he has a tendency to do in some games.
Nah, Pirlo'll just give him an elbow and he'll shuffle back to his proper position. You can count on it.
Heck, probably not even an elbow. Just a glance will probably be enough.
Here's my issue. Pirlo's role is to be a bridge from defense to offense. He's not an offensive weapon. His job has always been to be the guy to get the ball to the offensive player and be a support player for the defense. That's his game. It's not like he's a bust now...he just had a championship season in that role and also CL Final run in that role. Why the hell do I want to take one of the best players in the world in that role/position and move him? For Jacobson? I think that's insanity. Maybe you want pair them up in a 4-4-2 flat line? Maybe you go three in a 4-3-1-2 and have the ability to bring on bring another mid in with a 4-3-2-1? Whatever the case, why are we looking to do something different with him. You might say well Juve has the talent around him to allow him to do that. That's a fair point, but that talent around him plays against a much greater talent level than MLS, so it's almost a wash. Like I said, I like AJ. I think he hustles and is pretty good defensively. His problem is, once he takes possession and the opponents press him, he makes erratic passes. What good is having Pirlo above him, if he can't get the ball to him in proper time? You can't put Pirlo on the sides either. He's not coming here to chase down opposing wingers with Angelino/Iraola playing with high offensive work rates. Speaking to that. With Angelino and Iraola making runs, it is of the utmost importance that our outer mids stay central. That's why I'd like Mix and AJ playing those outer mid roles, since they both can contribute defensively and protect Angelino/Iraola when they do make their runs. I'd actually keep AJ on the left side, cause I want #69 to continue to make runs...cause he has something special. We need the protection on that left side anyway. Keep a tighter leash on Iraola, with Mix playing the right side, so he can penetrate when needed, to dump off to Lampard in the CAM...I think he will be our outside the box scorer. Well, that's the way I see it anyway. I've watched Pirlo play for a very long time, why screw with the process.
Great post. My question though is, with our other options, and also with the deficiencies you listed here, you would want to play Jacobson at LM over McNamara/Khiry(eventually)/Poku(understand questions remain about his fitness)?
BlueWarrior
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Couple issues.
1. About Jacobson, you say "once he takes possession and the opponents press him, he makes erratic passes," yet you want to move him to more of a high pressure role? I just want him to play defensively and break up counter attacks.
2. I think you're slightly mistaken about Pirlo's position and role. You are correct that he plays the bottom of the diamond. However, you are incorrect that he actually plays a major role defensively. It's always been the two center mids that track back and cover defensively, steal the ball, then get it to Pirlo who holds it, as they run back forward.
Compare these two heatmaps. The first is from our 2-0 victory over Toronto, at the peak of our run of good play, attacking right to left:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Attacking------------
Jacobson is back behind the offense, level with the fullbacks. This is the spot I'm advocating playing him in.
This is from the Champions League Final with Juventus going left to right:
-----------------------Attacking>>>>>>>>>>>>
Pirlo, as he often does, shows up in the middle of the field. That's because despite playing deeper, he is still very much an offensive player. In this game, it was Marchisio (8) that was tracking back and helping the defense.
So don't look at "position" so much as "role." Pirlo's job is to stay behind the play and distribute forward. Jacobson's role is the stay behind the play and break up attacks. They can definitely coexist.
I'll try explaining it one other way. In your diamond proposal, you have Mix and Jacobson as the CMs, running forward and tracking back. But isn't Mix much better and more effective in the attack, while Jacobson is much better defensively? Why not just leave Mix further forward and leave Jacobson further back? You just saved them a mile of running and lowered the probability of communication mistakes.
Couple issues.
1. About Jacobson, you say "once he takes possession and the opponents press him, he makes erratic passes," yet you want to move him to more of a high pressure role? I just want him to play defensively and break up counter attacks.
2. I think you're slightly mistaken about Pirlo's position and role. You are correct that he plays the bottom of the diamond. However, you are incorrect that he actually plays a major role defensively. It's always been the two center mids that track back and cover defensively, steal the ball, then get it to Pirlo who holds it, as they run back forward.
Compare these two heatmaps. The first is from our 2-0 victory over Toronto, at the peak of our run of good play, attacking right to left:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Attacking------------
Jacobson is back behind the offense, level with the fullbacks. This is the spot I'm advocating playing him in.
This is from the Champions League Final with Juventus going left to right:
-----------------------Attacking>>>>>>>>>>>>
Pirlo, as he often does, shows up in the middle of the field. That's because despite playing deeper, he is still very much an offensive player. In this game, it was Marchisio (8) that was tracking back and helping the defense.
So don't look at "position" so much as "role." Pirlo's job is to stay behind the play and distribute forward. Jacobson's role is the stay behind the play and break up attacks. They can definitely coexist.
I'll try explaining it one other way. In your diamond proposal, you have Mix and Jacobson as the CMs, running forward and tracking back. But isn't Mix much better and more effective in the attack, while Jacobson is much better defensively? Why not just leave Mix further forward and leave Jacobson further back? You just saved them a mile of running and lowered the probability of communication mistakes.
I never once said Pirlo has a major role defensively. I said he supports the defense as an outlet to the offense. Marchisio has the higher role defensively and although AJ is no where near that level, why couldn't he play that role? As far as AJ playing higher up, if you look at my formation he is almost even. He is there to play defense, protect the zone when the LB makes a run and have the ability to push the ball forward. As far as losing possession, I'd rather lose possession in the midfield than right in front of my above average CBs. Yes Pirlo gets involved with attacks. But he did so when Chiellini and Bonucci where in the attacking end too. You'd have Lich and Evra basically on the box edges too. We don't have Chiellini and Bonucci and I can't image Facey and Hernandez playing that far up. The graphs tell half the story. Watching him tells a different story. I question how much you've watched him, cause I've watched a lot. JK even said in the Presser that Pirlo fits into what he's trying to do with possession, dictating style and what he's trying to do has to be what I'm saying with Pirlo at the bottom. You don't play a possession, tempo dictating style with AJ playing the deep role. If you are right and he plays AJ behind him, I'll buy two Mix hats...I'll give you one and I'll eat the other lol.
Don't take my tone as being a dick...just healthy debate.
Edited to add: I don't think that AJ is going to be incredible in that spot, but I like him there defensively and would use Tmac offensively in that spot, or change of pace. I think out at of all the mids we've trotted out, AJ deserves the opportunity. I like that him and tmac play their asses off regardless of outcome.
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Im kinda into what I've seen from Mullins. He plays angry and I like that.
I'm still curious about Nemec also tbh.
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