Formation Speculation

[NickA]

Great post. My question though is, with our other options, and also with the deficiencies you listed here, you would want to play Jacobson at LM over McNamara/Khiry(eventually)/Poku(understand questions remain about his fitness)?

No,I think all of them will be part of the rotation. You can go speed, offense or defense with a simple change. I like all three of them. They are perfect off the bench players and certainly good enough for the spot start.

 

[sbrylski]

Don't take my tone as being a dick...just healthy debate.

Not at all. I definitely may have stepped on your toes by incorrectly suggesting you didn't understand Pirlo's role.

I never once said Pirlo has a major role defensively. I said he supports the defense as an outlet to the offense.

Correct, but in response to putting a player behind Pirlo explicitly for defensive purposes, you asked, "Why the hell do I want to take one of the best players in the world in that role/position and move him?" I read that statement to mean you thought Pirlo had important defensive responsibilities that my proposal was stripping him from.

In fact, Pirlo is in the exact same role in my W defense, because Jacobson playing behind Pirlo is actually an integral part of the defense. Pirlo still retains he role behind the offense, connecting the defensive trio of CB-Jacobson-CB to the offense. But Pirlo makes Jacobson better by removing his distribution duties, and Jacobson makes Pirlo better by removing any defensive duties he might have in the base of a diamond.

Marchisio has the higher role defensively and although AJ is no where near that level, why couldn't he play that role? As far as AJ playing higher up, if you look at my formation he is almost even. He is there to play defense, protect the zone when the LB makes a run and have the ability to push the ball forward. As far as losing possession, I'd rather lose possession in the midfield than right in front of my above average CBs. Yes Pirlo gets involved with attacks. But he did so when Chiellini and Bonucci where in the attacking end too. You'd have Lich and Evra basically on the box edges too. We don't have Chiellini and Bonucci and I can't image Facey and Hernandez playing that far up. The graphs tell half the story. Watching him tells a different story. I question how much you've watched him, cause I've watched a lot. JK even said in the Presser that Pirlo fits into what he's trying to do with possession, dictating style and what he's trying to do has to be what I'm saying with Pirlo at the bottom. You don't play a possession, tempo dictating style with AJ playing the deep role. If you are right and he plays AJ behind him, I'll buy two Mix hats...I'll give you one and I'll eat the other lol

The answer to most of this is that Jacobson sucks technically. He happens to be one of our hardest working and more physical midfielders, so he could excel in a role with pure defensive duties, without the tactical responsibility of holding the backline as a CB. In any other position, he's no longer one of our first choice midfielders.

I think our disconnect is that you think I'm trying to modify the diamond and put guys in weird spots. It would be more accurate to say I'm proposing a 3-5-2, playing fluid like the diamond but with an extra defender - because (1) our deep lying distributor is 36, (2) our CB's aren't great, and (3) we have a set of fullbacks with an extreme attacking mentality that might necessitate additional cover.

 

[NickA]

I think our disconnect is that you think I'm trying to modify the diamond and put guys in weird spots. It would be more accurate to say I'm proposing a 3-5-2, playing fluid like the diamond but with an extra defender - because (1) our deep lying distributor is 36, (2) our CB's aren't great, and (3) we have a set of fullbacks with an extreme attacking mentality that might necessitate additional cover.

I would love to play a 3-5-2 and have beat that drum before...but have stated we don't have the personnel for that. If you are suggesting that we use a poor man's 3-5-2 with AJ basically a CB, but technically not, I can dig that. I always thought a 3-5-2 could dominate this league....with skilled players only though and we have them now. Call me crazy, but I think AJ could have the potential of actually being a really good physical tall CB

 

[Midas Mulligan]

I would love to play a 3-5-2 and have beat that drum before...but have stated we don't have the personnel for that. If you are suggesting that we use a poor man's 3-5-2 with AJ basically a CB, but technically not, I can dig that. I always thought a 3-5-2 could dominate this league....with skilled players only though and we have them now. If that is what you are suggesting, I can dig that. Call me crazy, but I think AJ could have the potential of actually being a really good physical tall CB

Don't you make me go and quote myself from 5 months ago. I was advocating that shit in the way, way back. It would be even better now, since we wouldn't have to try to make wingbacks out of Shelton/Mullins/whomever.

 

[NickA]

Don't you make me go and quote myself from 5 months ago. I was advocating that shit in the way, way back. It would be even better now, since we wouldn't have to try to make wingbacks out of Shelton/Mullins/whomever.

Then we are all on the same page in one way or another...except JK will go and screw it up.

 

[sbrylski]

Then we are all on the same page in one way or another...except JK will go and screw it up.

Lol, yup I think we all are.

Time to close the thread then, I suppose. Lock 'er up, Dan!

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Then we are all on the same page in one way or another...except JK will go and screw it up.

Damnit. I went and did it anyway. And in the post I'm quoting here, I quoted myself again. I'm just too damn smart. From April 21 and Apr 18. It took me until May to acknowledge that Jacobsen was the choice for sweeper.

Ahem...so if it's going to look like that, why not get Bro off the field and get our best attackers out there...I think Calle needs to be up the pitch a lot. Shelton can't finish, so might as well let him run.

Get Poku and Jacobsen in the 6.5 / 6 roles, respectively. Let Mix and Villa play in front of them as a staggered CAM and SS with Nemec or Mullins at the top. When Cookie Burger decides to bring his "class" over to the city he holds so dear he's shunned us twice, he can fill that slot alongside Mix, and let Villa slide up. Or let Mix slide back and bump Poku/Jacobsen.

I've been on this kick for a while now. It just makes sense given how shitty we are at the back to acknowledge it and try to avoid it, rather than wallow in our pitifulness.

Also, we'll have people to get the ball wide who can actually handle it when we play out of the back. And runners in position to come off the knock downs when we don't.

Also, Wingert at a minimum would benefit from being an LCB, and Facey is likely similarly suited to that sort of CB/wide defender hybrid required. Or even reducing Williams running would help him out when he held one of those spots. That just leaves CB/Sweeper. I think Hernandez might be okay there, or even KWS, since he *tries* to cut things out.

Damnit. I make too much sense. I just guaranteed we'll never see this.

We need a 3 man backline since we have no competent fullbacks. I think Calle would be a great WB if he weren't out of shape.

Shelton would be competent at RWB.

I can't see the point in running out the same pitiful fullbacks.

And I can't see why in the world we would not start Poku. If we're going to suck, let's suck with guys who have the aptitude for improvement.

 

[NickA]

Damnit. I went and did it anyway. And in the post I'm quoting here, I quoted myself again. I'm just too damn smart. From April 21 and Apr 18. It took me until May to acknowledge that Jacobsen was the choice for sweeper.

 

[sbrylski]

Great article about the evolution of MLS tactics was published today by MLS.com: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...cer-and-mlss-field-evolution-armchair-analyst

A couple quotes:

More than formation, though, the tactical choices MLS coaches seemed to make following the success of those early United and Fire teams were more about getting speed on the flanks and a creator underneath a targetman. Some teams called this a 4-4-2, while others got adventurous and called it a 4-2-3-1, and still others called it a 4-5-1. Some of them worked, but most of them didn't.

Why not?

Well, because one of the hardest things to do in all of sports is complete an attacking pass at speed, and if you're asking your fullbacks to overlap but not just bend in hopeful crosses, you're ipso facto asking them to connect attacking passes at speed. You're also asking your wide midfielders to defend better and run more. And you're asking your defensive midfielder to do more work spraying the ball from side-to-side. And you're quite possibly asking your No. 10 to be more of a No. 8.

Here the article lays out just how much strain we have been putting on each position so far this year. Kreis has definitely implemented a strategy that is extremely tough to play, while having little talent and chemistry. Bad move.

Sporting's success does not mean the 4-4-2 has died or even gone out of style. It's just had to evolve.

Nowhere has that evolution been more beneficial than in LA, where Arena -- yes, him again -- from 2011 through 2014 shifted from a flat 4-4-2 to what folks took to calling a "Y" midfield. It's called that because if you look down upon the midfield during the run of play, the spots the four midfielders occupy look like the letter Y: The d-mid at the base of the Y, the box-to-box midfielder at the fork, and the two wide midfielders advanced, but not all that wide.

The success of the Y is based upon the ability of the wide midfielders to instantly swap roles between "creator", "goal-scorer" and "decoy," and their willingness to do so. It's a more complex role than the way the typical wide midfielder is used, and asks more in possession than pure wingers like those in the 4-3-3, or even certain 4-2-3-1s are usually able to give.

And this is what I'm advocating. The article says Sporting and other teams use of the 4-3-3 with "target wingers" is the newest successful trend, but Arena's Y midfield is still a rock that we can absolutely play with our personnel.

 

[kun]

Kreis' world XI:

Neuer
Lahm Ramos Thiago Wingert
Pogba Iniesta Grabavoy
Messi Aguero Ronaldo

 

[LionNYC]

Kreis' world XI:

Neuer
Lahm Ramos Thiago Wingert
Pogba Iniesta Grabavoy
Messi Aguero Ronaldo

Where's Beckerman?

 

[Seven]

Free kick practice

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Free kick practiceView attachment 3092

Where's Frank?

 

[northernburbs]

Where's Frank?

1 of the blocking dummies to the right out of the photo

 

[Midas Mulligan]

1 of the blocking dummies to the right out of the photo

Alternatively, did Chelsea have a friendly he could watch at a bar? Or were there some lovely English "nycfc fans" for whom he was buying tickets with .000001% of his 0.00000000% earned paycheck?

 

[kun]

I've changed my mind (again!) lol

-----------------------------Villa
-----Calle-----------------------------------------Mix
--------------Lampard---------------Poku
Angelino------------------Pirlo------------------Iraola
-----------------Facey----------------Mena
---------------------------Saunders

Fuck defence, let's win every game 5-3!

 

[sbrylski]

I'd like to point out that Pirlo didn't have a successful tackle, interception, block, clearance, or recovery in his 35 minutes.

Jacobson had 10 recoveries, a tackle and an interception.

I'm not saying Pirlo's worthless defensively, but I am saying he needs a partner. Either our mids track back extensively, or just park Jacobson next to him. I prefer the latter.

We were in a pretty honest 4-2-3-1 today, but with our fullbacks playing so high, it looks more like a 2-4-3-1:

(ESPN's heatmap has starters and subs. 23 in for 17, 21 in for 20, and 10 in for 30)

I say stick with it. This game convinced me to give Villa another chance alone up front for two reasons:

1. He got good service, which had him running into space instead of into defenders during the second half.

2. Our three attacking midfielders actually attacked, which meant Villa wasn't as isolated as he usually is in our 1-forward formations. Again, the key to this was having Jacobson back with Pirlo, so our other three mids could focus offensively.

Next week:

I'm not completely sold on Poku being better as a starter than a second half sub, but let's ride him in the CAM spot until Lampard finally plays. You could also make a case for McNamara over Calle.

 

[The Toe]

Any starting formation with Calle in it is ludicrous to me. Our best lineup is going to have our most talented players out there, with a speed sub (Shelton), a defensive sub (Brovsky/Wingert/Hernandez or Mena) and a midfield sub (Poku). I think we can get 90 out of Lampard and Pirlo more often than not. Villa; Mix, Lampard, Pirlo, Jacobson, Mac; Angelino, Facey, Hernandez/Mena, Iraola. Pirlo will stay back, so will Jacobson; Mix can track back. So long as someone can make sure we have 4 men back at any given moment, we can score with anyone. Lineup will give us a puncher's chance every time.

 

[sbrylski]

Here's how Villa alone up top can work because the other midfielders are now attack minded:

I'm going to be kind of lazy and let the gif speak for itself. But it shows early how Orlando's defense collapses three guys on Villa, which allows Poku to dribble forward into the space, and Calle to run unmarked. As a result, Villa steps back and receives the ball with space, makes one guy miss and then buries it.

Sure enough, on our next goal, same thing happens. This time Poku hits the wide open running midfielder rather than Villa to his right:

I'm thinking Villa *can* play up top by himself, provided he's not *isolated*. Him drawing 2-3 defenders every play should be a positive, not a negative.

 

[sbrylski]

Any starting formation with Calle in it is ludicrous to me. Our best lineup is going to have our most talented players out there, with a speed sub (Shelton), a defensive sub (Brovsky/Wingert/Hernandez or Mena) and a midfield sub (Poku). I think we can get 90 out of Lampard and Pirlo more often than not. Villa; Mix, Lampard, Pirlo, Jacobson, Mac; Angelino, Facey, Hernandez/Mena, Iraola. Pirlo will stay back, so will Jacobson; Mix can track back. So long as someone can make sure we have 4 men back at any given moment, we can score with anyone. Lineup will give us a puncher's chance every time.

Calle played pretty well. I think he is definitely one of our more talented midfielders. Mac is good too, as a pointed out in my post, but he also made some poor plays in this game. He's not irreplaceable.