Kreis Ups The Ante On Post-game Comments

[AJS]

These posts exemplify a lot. The Kreis love centers around first year apologism focused on, "you can't evaluate a coach who has the deck stacked against him."

On the other hand you have the good cop, bad cop comparison and whether or not a coach can be a effective as one or the other.

The question I have is whether as a good cop or a bad cop and regardless of the deck being stacked as it was, has Kreis shown the leadership qualities you want in a coach? To succeed, a coach needs to have his players like, trust, or respect. He should probably have at least two of the three. I think in SKC he had trust and respect from his playing history there. But how much of that translated to NYC?

So, does Kreis have like, trust, and/or respect from his team? He needs at least one of the three. Please, Kreis supporters. I really do want to know. Is there an argument that he has any of these from his team? If he has 2 out of the 3 I support him as coach for next year. Please, convince me.

For me, the hard part is that there is no way for us to know. We can speculate how we think the players would react to some of his public comments (which certainly seem like an odd strategy) and we can try to read some body language, but we are seeing a tiny fraction of the interactions between the players and Kreiss. Plus, we don't really know what any of these guys are like at a personal level and different people respond to different experiences in varied ways. It would be absolutely fascinating to have insight into this stuff, but we have such little information.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

For me, the hard part is that there is no way for us to know. We can speculate how we think the players would react to some of his public comments (which certainly seem like an odd strategy) and we can try to read some body language, but we are seeing a tiny fraction of the interactions between the players and Kreiss. Plus, we don't really know what any of these guys are like at a personal level and different people respond to different experiences in varied ways. It would be absolutely fascinating to have insight into this stuff, but we have such little information.

We have the huge disconnect between Kreis' comments and the players' comments. We have our captain making public comments of frustration with the formation.

 

[SoupInNYC]

No evidence he wanted Pirlo either like the poster put forth.

I really don't care what the other poster had "put forth" (though reading his post again, doesn't really look like he says "Kreis wanted Pirlo".). I just think the following quote is ridiculous. "No way Kreis wanted Pirlo. CFG wanted Pirlo. To say otherwise is rewriting history."

I think he is fine on that list. Not every high reward/low risk guy has to work out. If there is even a low percent chance that we get a slimmer of what John used to be, the risk (paying nothing to the salary cap) is worth it.

Valid point. Though I disagree with the low risk standpoint. I understand that the guy's salary isn't counting against the cap, but its still another $200k+ or whatever he's making that the owners are cutting a check for. And on top of that, that same salary will be paid next year, whether or not he recovers well from his injury and is able to get back to form. I would say paying a player that much next year and counting against the cap, with the potential that he doesn't recover well from injury is a high risk.

 

[FootyLovin]

For me, the hard part is that there is no way for us to know. We can speculate how we think the players would react to some of his public comments (which certainly seem like an odd strategy) and we can try to read some body language, but we are seeing a tiny fraction of the interactions between the players and Kreiss. Plus, we don't really know what any of these guys are like at a personal level and different people respond to different experiences in varied ways. It would be absolutely fascinating to have insight into this stuff, but we have such little information.

We have the huge disconnect between Kreis' comments and the players' comments. We have our captain making public comments of frustration with the formation.

Both true. And

1. This is all relevant in year 1 or month 1 of a coach's tenure. No coach who turns his whole team against him should get a pass for two years.
2. We might not have the info to make this judgement. But CFG better have it. And if they don't they are as bad at leadership as the Kreis out group thinks he is.

 

[JayH]

Both true. And

1. This is all relevant in year 1 or month 1 of a coach's tenure. No coach who turns his whole team against him should get a pass for two years.
2. We might not have the info to make this judgement. But CFG better have it. And if they don't they are as bad at leadership as the Kreis out group thinks he is.

Agree on these. Given the way CFG generally operates, and the way they seem to have micro-managed (or at a minimum, been highly involved with) the team, I have to think they are well aware of the coach/team dynamics (whatever they are). If he has lost the locker room, I would think/hope they sack him. If the dynamic is not as bad as we suspect or it appears based upon the incomplete information we see, I believe he will get another year.

 

[Seth]

For me, the hard part is that there is no way for us to know. We can speculate how we think the players would react to some of his public comments (which certainly seem like an odd strategy) and we can try to read some body language, but we are seeing a tiny fraction of the interactions between the players and Kreiss. Plus, we don't really know what any of these guys are like at a personal level and different people respond to different experiences in varied ways. It would be absolutely fascinating to have insight into this stuff, but we have such little information.

Totally agree. I've been saying more or less the same thing since I joined the forum. We just don't know. And because we don't know, there's endless speculation here (nothing wrong with that, of course). The problem though is that since we have no facts to base things on we tend to accept our speculations as true when the reality is we simply don't know what's really going on. I often wish we did, but until a few people write their memoirs ten years from now we just can't know. Alas.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

I really don't care what the other poster had "put forth" (though reading his post again, doesn't really look like he says "Kreis wanted Pirlo".). I just think the following quote is ridiculous. "No way Kreis wanted Pirlo. CFG wanted Pirlo. To say otherwise is rewriting history."


Valid point. Though I disagree with the low risk standpoint. I understand that the guy's salary isn't counting against the cap, but its still another $200k+ or whatever he's making that the owners are cutting a check for. And on top of that, that same salary will be paid next year, whether or not he recovers well from his injury and is able to get back to form. I would say paying a player that much next year and counting against the cap, with the potential that he doesn't recover well from injury is a high risk.

I stand by both statements. #kriesout crew is putting forward a narrative that kreis is 100% responsible for our roster and has total control which just isn't true. I really can't see him making those statements about xavi being old cm when we have a gluttony of cms AND then basically do a complete 180 for pirlo a couple days later?

George John's salary doesn't matter if he's not impacting the salary cap and hurting our teams finances next year. I not going to be crying for the couple thousands out of our oil shiek's pocket. CFG just overpaid millions and millions for some of the MCFC transfers. We have no way of knowing how much we are paying him, or how long is contract was for. For all we know he could not even be under contract and we just own his rights since he never came up on the MLS players union list.

 

[NYdoesitEZ]

Totally agree. I've been saying more or less the same thing since I joined the forum. We just don't know. And because we don't know, there's endless speculation here (nothing wrong with that, of course). The problem though is that since we have no facts to base things on we tend to accept our speculations as true when the reality is we simply don't know what's really going on. I often wish we did, but until a few people write their memoirs ten years from now we just can't know. Alas.

Lampard's response to Kries said all, seems to me. you need more proof? how long have you been working? if you are the team leader, is that something you would elect to do? how would you feel if you are on the receiving end? Successful and confident boss always protected his/her team no matter what. His public lashing out tells me at least he is not confident enough and is panicking. A more experienced coach who has been there and done that would probably envision the trajectory for the rest of the season(could be good or bad outcomes) and feel more confident of what needs to be done. Kries obviously does not have experience to draw from which is not his fault. I never understand why you would hire a relatively new coach to coach an expansion team. you need an old fox/hand to do the job!

 

[AJS]

There's a limit to how much stock I'm willing to put in those Lampard quotes. He also said he respected Kreiss for saying what he did. Who knows if he does? My read is that they are the very carefully measured words of a guy who has spent 20 years in the glaring spotlight of the English press and is savvy enough to choose his words carefully. Perhaps Kreiss lacks that skill, but I continue to be hesitant to extrapolate too much from it about what is really going on between him and players. The "lost the dressing room" is a favorite narrative of the press and, in this case, I'm not sure anyone who has access has even written that story (I could be wrong).

However, if his relationship with the team is half as bad as some suggest, he's definitely gone after this year because I can't see any manager surviving that.

 

[Gavin23]

These posts exemplify a lot. The Kreis love centers around first year apologism focused on, "you can't evaluate a coach who has the deck stacked against him."

On the other hand you have the good cop, bad cop comparison and whether or not a coach can be a effective as one or the other.

The question I have is whether as a good cop or a bad cop and regardless of the deck being stacked as it was, has Kreis shown the leadership qualities you want in a coach? To succeed, a coach needs to have his players like, trust, or respect. He should probably have at least two of the three. I think in SKC he had trust and respect from his playing history there. But how much of that translated to NYC?

So, does Kreis have like, trust, and/or respect from his team? He needs at least one of the three. Please, Kreis supporters. I really do want to know. Is there an argument that he has any of these from his team? If he has 2 out of the 3 I support him as coach for next year. Please, convince me.

RSL not SKC

 

[Seth]

Lampard's response to Kries said all, seems to me. you need more proof? how long have you been working? if you are the team leader, is that something you would elect to do? how would you feel if you are on the receiving end? Successful and confident boss always protected his/her team no matter what. His public lashing out tells me at least he is not confident enough and is panicking. A more experienced coach who has been there and done that would probably envision the trajectory for the rest of the season(could be good or bad outcomes) and feel more confident of what needs to be done. Kries obviously does not have experience to draw from which is not his fault. I never understand why you would hire a relatively new coach to coach an expansion team. you need an old fox/hand to do the job!

Well, gotta say I disagree with almost all of this. No, that's not really what it is. It's more that I see the same exact things we're both looking at in a totally different way from how you see them. Maybe.

Firstly, Kreis is not a new coach. He won the league with his previous team, and he played in the league as well. So he has a pedigree.

Secondly, what you list as proof isn't anything of the sort. Lampard's response seemed to me to be a carefully considered three-second sound bite meant for public consumption. To me that's not proof of anything except that he knows how to talk to the press without getting himself, his team, the team's management, or his coach in hot water.

And all the rest, about bosses and teams? No, not at all. Bosses and team leaders are not judged on how good they are, they're judged on results. Perhaps the most extreme example is Steve Jobs. Not a nice guy to work for, but he took a going-out-of-business computer company and built it into the largest and most successful company in the world. There's no connection between success, confidence, and "protecting your team." Unless you work at some hippie fruit store you answer to your boss and your only job is to help your boss reach their yearly goals. And your boss doesn't have to care about you at all. If you help them meet their goals that's great as that's all that matters. And your boss's boss doesn't care about you at all either. As long as your boss helps their boss meet their goals everything's great. And maybe your boss's boss answers to the CEO. But the CEO answers to the shareholders, whose goals have to be met. It never ends.

So no, what Lampard or Kreis said means nothing. It's all office politics. Has no meaning, and no relation to how everyone feels on the practice field, in the locker room, or on game day. Everything you hear from anyone all up and down the chain is politics, and should be interpreted that way.

So no, I see no panic. I only see sound bites. And I've said all along, we just don't really have any idea what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[Paul]

I stand by both statements. #kriesout crew is putting forward a narrative that kreis is 100% responsible for our roster and has total control which just isn't true. I really can't see him making those statements about xavi being old cm when we have a gluttony of cms AND then basically do a complete 180 for pirlo a couple days later?

I just want to be clear here: I'm in the #KreisOut crew but it has nothing to do with whether or not he wanted Pirlo and everything to do with his lineup & tactical decisions and his willingness, no eagerness, to throw our players under the bus (some of them by name). I don't think Kreis wanted Pirlo as his first choice 3rd DP but I don't think he was necessarily against it either. Why would he go to such lengths to actually distinguish Pirlo from Xavi in the press? Kreis is generally very short and aggressive in his disinterest during interviews/answering questions unless he's trying to send a specific message. So when he said Pirlo is ok here and Xavi isn't I don't think he was trying to tell management he can toe the company line, but I could be wrong. I think he was saying Xavi and Pirlo are both not my 1st choice but Pirlo can be a useful addition. It's just a matter of interpretation and nuance I guess, but that's how I see it.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Re: the desperate times/desperate answers (can't get the colloquialism right?) Most of us on this forum have realized times have been desperate since we were tanking games against philly and Chicago by playing Ned, Ballouchy and Velasquez instead of poku, mcnamara and Shelton. This is well past desperate times, we're into Falcor territory.

Playoffs here we come!

 

[FootyLovin]

RSL not SKC

Most definitely correct. No more fast posting for me. I wish I could blame alcohol but I can only blame myself.

Wait! No. I'll blame the players. They are the reason I said SKC. I and my other posters were working hard enough. If the players had put in more effort I would have realized it was RSL.

That felt good. I totally understand Kreiss now.

 

[NYdoesitEZ]

Well, gotta say I disagree with almost all of this. No, that's not really what it is. It's more that I see the same exact things we're both looking at in a totally different way from how you see them. Maybe.

Firstly, Kreis is not a new coach. He won the league with his previous team, and he played in the league as well. So he has a pedigree.

Secondly, what you list as proof isn't anything of the sort. Lampard's response seemed to me to be a carefully considered three-second sound bite meant for public consumption. To me that's not proof of anything except that he knows how to talk to the press without getting himself, his team, the team's management, or his coach in hot water.

And all the rest, about bosses and teams? No, not at all. Bosses and team leaders are not judged on how good they are, they're judged on results. Perhaps the most extreme example is Steve Jobs. Not a nice guy to work for, but he took a going-out-of-business computer company and built it into the largest and most successful company in the world. There's no connection between success, confidence, and "protecting your team." Unless you work at some hippie fruit store you answer to your boss and your only job is to help your boss reach their yearly goals. And your boss doesn't have to care about you at all. If you help them meet their goals that's great as that's all that matters. And your boss's boss doesn't care about you at all either. As long as your boss helps their boss meet their goals everything's great. And maybe your boss's boss answers to the CEO. But the CEO answers to the shareholders, whose goals have to be met. It never ends.

So no, what Lampard or Kreis said means nothing. It's all office politics. Has no meaning, and no relation to how everyone feels on the practice field, in the locker room, or on game day. Everything you hear from anyone all up and down the chain is politics, and should be interpreted that way.

So no, I see no panic. I only see sound bites. And I've said all along, we just don't really have any idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Seth, disagree with you 100%. You wouldn't hire someone who trashes his former company and blame everyone for failure. Not the kind if leader you want. A person who emphasize that kind of politics is the kind of person you don't want on your team or as your leader. Steve jobs made his team feel a sense of accomplishment, regardless how behind the scene he shit on them. In my experience, maybe you have different professional experience than mine, a great leader just can't do what Kries did. Only a panicking boss resort to that, in anticipation of boardroom firing and he wants to protect his own job by throwing everyone else under the bus, simple as that.
Even if you are right,that's just sound bite, why bother? To what purpose did that serve other than what just pointed out? The point is, a boss can be mean and harsh and should put a lot of pressure on his/her team, but in public you don't lash out. If you can't get your team to put on 100%, what does that's say about your leadership? Somehow by going public suddenly the team is going to listen to you and put on 100%? It's very perplexing, even if his view is right. I question his tactic to say the best/least.
You call a coach who won minor league pedigree? How old is he and how long has he been coaching? How many clubs? That's why I said he was relatively new. Anyway my point of this club needing an old hand/ fox remains a valid one. I just fail to see the angle you look at this matter. If you want to resort to " we don't know anything". Then how about something we do know: this clubs performance so far?
Btw, a side topic, from limited appearance from Lamp, I think he can contribute. He is good enough to make a difference. Look forward to his contribution. Wether it is too little and too late remains to be seen.

 

[LeeNYCFC]

Great coaches and leaders never criticize their players

"There’s no way to sugar coat it, it was a pathetic offensive performance," Tom Coughlin said. "We didn’t block anybody, we didn’t make any plays, we didn’t create any opportunities for ourselves. I told the players who prepared and gave great effort that I appreciate what they did; I told those that were obvious they had not that I felt sorry for them, because they’re missing the whole point."

http://www.netsdaily.com/2015/8/10/9127095/phil-jackson-bashes-bargnani-larkin-yet-again

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/11598946/joe-girardi-criticized-new-york-yankees-pregame-tirade-derek-jeter-yankee-stadium-finale

 

[NYCFC_Dan]

Great coaches and leaders never criticize their players

"There’s no way to sugar coat it, it was a pathetic offensive performance," Tom Coughlin said. "We didn’t block anybody, we didn’t make any plays, we didn’t create any opportunities for ourselves. I told the players who prepared and gave great effort that I appreciate what they did; I told those that were obvious they had not that I felt sorry for them, because they’re missing the whole point."

http://www.netsdaily.com/2015/8/10/9127095/phil-jackson-bashes-bargnani-larkin-yet-again

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/11598946/joe-girardi-criticized-new-york-yankees-pregame-tirade-derek-jeter-yankee-stadium-finale

Oh my lanta. I read that really quick as if Kreis said it. And I'm all like... This guy really doesn't get it.

 

[FootyLovin]

Great coaches and leaders never criticize their players

"There’s no way to sugar coat it, it was a pathetic offensive performance," Tom Coughlin said. "We didn’t block anybody, we didn’t make any plays, we didn’t create any opportunities for ourselves. I told the players who prepared and gave great effort that I appreciate what they did; I told those that were obvious they had not that I felt sorry for them, because they’re missing the whole point."

http://www.netsdaily.com/2015/8/10/9127095/phil-jackson-bashes-bargnani-larkin-yet-again

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/11598946/joe-girardi-criticized-new-york-yankees-pregame-tirade-derek-jeter-yankee-stadium-finale

Good point if the situations were parallel. But they aren't.

Coughlin, Jackson and Girardi were legendary coaches. They had total control of their teams and tremendous respect from everyone in the entire sport, let alone their locker rooms. And none of them ever said, "Well, it's a shame our players don't try as hard as our coaches."

 

[BxLio91]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...jason-kreis-really-pleased-teams-fight-comeba

 

[LeeNYCFC]

Good point if the situations were parallel. But they aren't.

Coughlin, Jackson and Girardi were legendary coaches. They had total control of their teams and tremendous respect from everyone in the entire sport, let alone their locker rooms. And none of them ever said, "Well, it's a shame our players don't try as hard as our coaches."

Yeah, I was highlighting given some of the comments that any criticism by a manager is forbidden

As others have said, I don't believe any of us know the Kreis/Reyna/players/CFG dynamic to say how his comments were received so I won't belabor that disagreement further

I just wanted to point out that it's not intrinsically bad management to rip your guys. Sometimes, that's what they need