Preseason - February 16 - Orlando

[Ulrich]

Check out @NYCFC’s Tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1097169176857321472

The context here is valuable, especially regarding the "we were without Mitri and maybe the new striker" comment which seemed like an excuse. He followed that up with comments about how preseason is not necessarily about the results, and an explanation about what he thought wasn't working.

Interestingly, he appeared to mention that our full back got caught 2 v 1 between their strikers and wingers which might suggest that our wingers weren't well positioned or weren't tracking their marks.

Also the comment at the end about Maxi playing as a striker might be a hedge against us not picking up a forward too soon.

He didn’t think a run of last season while we were losing was important either because he was experimenting. That seems to be his M.O. the guy doesn’t get a pass and needs to be taking results more seriously since he’s got a poor track record for comparison, because as of yet his tactics don’t seem to produce outcomes we can be proud of.

And I wonder if he’s gonna bench the winger opposite Lewis since that’s the person that didn't track on the first goal, or do they get treated differently?

And love that he’s gonna use our one real creative midfielder as the striker, a 5’0” striker at that.

 

[ZYanksRule]

He didn’t think a run of last season while we were losing was important either because he was experimenting. That seems to be his M.O. the guy doesn’t get a pass and needs to be taking results more seriously since he’s got a poor track record for comparison, because as of yet his tactics don’t seem to produce outcomes we can be proud of.

And I wonder if he’s gonna bench the winger opposite Lewis since that’s the person that didn't track on the first goal, or do they get treated differently?

And love that he’s gonna use our one real creative midfielder as the striker, a 5’0” striker at that.

Agree with you that he doesn't get a pass and needs results. Once the regular season starts.

He gets the preseason. Results don't matter right now. I'm not sold on Dome, either, but I won't freak out about results until March 2.

 

[Kjbert]

When is it ok to be unhappy with the manager?

 

[Ulrich]

Agree with you that he doesn't get a pass and needs results. Once the regular season starts.

He gets the preseason. Results don't matter right now. I'm not sold on Dome, either, but I won't freak out about results until March 2.

Results matter now as to whether the team can implement the tactics and/or the tactics are sound. It’s highly disturbing that the same guys here last year, starters no less, still are having problems implementing his style.

 

[ZYanksRule]

When is it ok to be unhappy with the manager?

He was awful last year. Ruined the season. Ruined David Villa's final season with us.

I'm not pleased with him, but I'm also not going to be unreasonable by making assessments based off preseason.

 

[Kjbert]

He was awful last year. Ruined the season. Ruined David Villa's final season with us.

I'm not pleased with him, but I'm also not going to be unreasonable by making assessments based off preseason.

I agree.

I think all of us DomeOut people are looking for a reason to be reasonable.

So the question stands, at what point in the season are we allowed to bitch and moan?

 

[ZYanksRule]

I agree.

I think all of us DomeOut people are looking for a reason to be reasonable.

So the question stands, at what point in the season are we allowed to bitch and moan?

I think Dome needs to get off to a fast start, otherwise it's going to get ugly really fast.

 

[adam]

When is it ok to be unhappy with the manager?

That’s actually a good question. Our first 4 matches are: (my expectations in parentices)

@ Orlando (3pts)
DCU (3pts)
LAFC (3pt)
@ TOR (3pts) w/o Giovinco & Vazquez

I can’t see how I’m not disappointed. But we should beat Orlando on the road. We should also win our home matches, but those are 2 very tough opponents. If we drew both it wouldn’t be crazy, but still disappointing. And Toronto without Giovinco and Vazquez should probably keep one of the best MLS teams ever towards the bottom of the table for a 2nd year in a row. So I’m expecting 12 points in our 1st 4 matches and I’m not being ridiculous.

Now let’s get more realistic. It’s always hard to get points on the road. So a draw at both ORL & TOR are not awful results. If one of both DCU or LAFC drew us at home, we’d have to probably tip our hats to them as they are both very talented squads this year. That’s 6 points in the first 4 matches. Do we call for Dome’s head at that point? Maybe. But I’m not sure it would be too fair.

 

[dummyrun]

it's going to get ugly

Huh cool, how'd you change the date on this post from six months ago?

 

[Ulrich]

That’s actually a good question. Our first 4 matches are: (my expectations in parentices)

@ Orlando (3pts)
DCU (3pts)
LAFC (3pt)
@ TOR (3pts) w/o Giovinco & Vazquez

I can’t see how I’m not disappointed. But we should beat Orlando on the road. We should also win our home matches, but those are 2 very tough opponents. If we drew both it wouldn’t be crazy, but still disappointing. And Toronto without Giovinco and Vazquez should probably keep one of the best MLS teams ever towards the bottom of the table for a 2nd year in a row. So I’m expecting 12 points in our 1st 4 matches and I’m not being ridiculous.

Now let’s get more realistic. It’s always hard to get points on the road. So a draw at both ORL & TOR are not awful results. If one of both DCU or LAFC drew us at home, we’d have to probably tip our hats to them as they are both very talented squads this year. That’s 6 points in the first 4 matches. Do we call for Dome’s head at that point? Maybe. But I’m not sure it would be too fair.

Dome doesn’t have a track record of winning away, so I’d say at best we’re gonna get 3 pts from those first four matches and more likely just 2pts. And yes, at that point the collision klaxon should be sounding at full decibels as were gonna be hit broadside each match.

 

[mgarbowski]

I agree.

I think all of us DomeOut people are looking for a reason to be reasonable.

So the question stands, at what point in the season are we allowed to bitch and moan?

Allowed, literally? Any time you want. Not just because there's no effective way to stop you, either. I think it's the nature of being a fan that you're allowed to be capricious and unreasonable. Plus he did have 19 games last year.

But if you're determined to give him a fresh start and not start killing him until there's a decent sample size, I think the minimum is a quarter-season or 9 games. Anything less than that is way, way too subject to randomness. Frankly, I don't even think 9 games is sufficient to get fully past randomness, injuries, and learning curves. In 2016 the team PPG thru 15 games was 1.20. It was 1.89 after that. Last year it was 2.05 through 21 games and then 1.00 for the last 13. Yes, I know 2016 Vieira started from scratch with a worse roster, and Dome came in mid-year last year while things were good, and neither applies this season. But we've seen Dallas collapse utterly a couple of years ago after dominating the first half, and Seattle's recent second halves are becoming legendary. So no matter when you judge him, positive or negative, there's a chance things get much better, or worse, than even the first half of a season can tell. But waiting until a season is almost over is unrealistic.

So 9 games has always been when I start running the numbers on a season because I do think it's the bare minimum to have a decent sample size, even though things often turn upside-down along the way. And I think it's probably enough for eye test judgments also.

So sure, as ZYanksRule said, things will get ugly early if we don't start well, and adam is already targeting the first 4 games. And again, I have no problem with either. I'll be complaining myself if we start poorly. But I think if you're determined to take this season new and give this coach and system a fair shake as if last year didn't happen, the minimum is that quarter season mark.

 

[Kjbert]

Allowed, literally? Any time you want. Not just because there's no effective way to stop you, either. I think it's the nature of being a fan that you're allowed to be capricious and unreasonable. Plus he did have 19 games last year.

But if you're determined to give him a fresh start and not start killing him until there's a decent sample size, I think the minimum is a quarter-season or 9 games. Anything less than that is way, way too subject to randomness. Frankly, I don't even think 9 games is sufficient to get fully past randomness, injuries, and learning curves. In 2016 the team PPG thru 15 games was 1.20. It was 1.89 after that. Last year it was 2.05 through 21 games and then 1.00 for the last 13. Yes, I know 2016 Vieira started from scratch with a worse roster, and Dome came in mid-year last year while things were good, and neither applies this season. But we've seen Dallas collapse utterly a couple of years ago after dominating the first half, and Seattle's recent second halves are becoming legendary. So no matter when you judge him, positive or negative, there's a chance things get much better, or worse, than even the first half of a season can tell. But waiting until a season is almost over is unrealistic.

So 9 games has always been when I start running the numbers on a season because I do think it's the bare minimum to have a decent sample size, even though things often turn upside-down along the way. And I think it's probably enough for eye test judgments also.

So sure, as ZYanksRule said, things will get ugly early if we don't start well, and adam is already targeting the first 4 games. And again, I have no problem with either. I'll be complaining myself if we start poorly. But I think if you're determined to take this season new and give this coach and system a fair shake as if last year didn't happen, the minimum is that quarter season mark.

I say allowed because those of us that bitch and moan now constantly face bitching and moaning about our bitching and moaning

 

[mgarbowski]

I say allowed because those of us that bitch and moan now constantly face bitching and moaning about our bitching and moaning

http://nycfcforums.com/index.php?threads/official-vent-thread.2984/page-38#post-267681

 

[Kjbert]

That’s actually a good question. Our first 4 matches are: (my expectations in parentices)

@ Orlando (3pts)
DCU (3pts)
LAFC (3pt)
@ TOR (3pts) w/o Giovinco & Vazquez

I can’t see how I’m not disappointed. But we should beat Orlando on the road. We should also win our home matches, but those are 2 very tough opponents. If we drew both it wouldn’t be crazy, but still disappointing. And Toronto without Giovinco and Vazquez should probably keep one of the best MLS teams ever towards the bottom of the table for a 2nd year in a row. So I’m expecting 12 points in our 1st 4 matches and I’m not being ridiculous.

Now let’s get more realistic. It’s always hard to get points on the road. So a draw at both ORL & TOR are not awful results. If one of both DCU or LAFC drew us at home, we’d have to probably tip our hats to them as they are both very talented squads this year. That’s 6 points in the first 4 matches. Do we call for Dome’s head at that point? Maybe. But I’m not sure it would be too fair.

Good post.

We should beat Orlando. They stink. I think this board will melt down if we lose. Maybe even if we draw.

The DCU and LAFC games are good tests. Both are probably Top 4 seeds in their Conference. If nycfc is good, we should win those games at home. I think we’ll know a lot about this team after 3 games. And i think even the most reasonable of posters will want 9 points from
Those games. I think anything less than 7 points and the board here turns on him.

Great thoughts by you adam

 

[Kjbert]

mgarbowski good post.

You say 9 games. Fair.

But would you agree that LA and DC are good early tests that a good team should win?

 

[mgarbowski]

mgarbowski good post.

You say 9 games. Fair.

But would you agree that LA and DC are good early tests that a good team should win?

We should win 13-15 home games. Those opponents are in the set of those who could reasonably draw or beat us, but early bad home results require either near perfection at home the rest of the way or 2016 level away results.

 

[Kjbert]

We should win 13-15 home games. Those opponents are in the set of those who could reasonably draw or beat us, but early bad home results require either near perfection at home the rest of the way or 2016 level away results.

A good team needs to beat the other good teams.

 

[Ulrich]

Allowed, literally? Any time you want. Not just because there's no effective way to stop you, either. I think it's the nature of being a fan that you're allowed to be capricious and unreasonable. Plus he did have 19 games last year.

But if you're determined to give him a fresh start and not start killing him until there's a decent sample size, I think the minimum is a quarter-season or 9 games. Anything less than that is way, way too subject to randomness. Frankly, I don't even think 9 games is sufficient to get fully past randomness, injuries, and learning curves. In 2016 the team PPG thru 15 games was 1.20. It was 1.89 after that. Last year it was 2.05 through 21 games and then 1.00 for the last 13. Yes, I know 2016 Vieira started from scratch with a worse roster, and Dome came in mid-year last year while things were good, and neither applies this season. But we've seen Dallas collapse utterly a couple of years ago after dominating the first half, and Seattle's recent second halves are becoming legendary. So no matter when you judge him, positive or negative, there's a chance things get much better, or worse, than even the first half of a season can tell. But waiting until a season is almost over is unrealistic.

So 9 games has always been when I start running the numbers on a season because I do think it's the bare minimum to have a decent sample size, even though things often turn upside-down along the way. And I think it's probably enough for eye test judgments also.

So sure, as ZYanksRule said, things will get ugly early if we don't start well, and adam is already targeting the first 4 games. And again, I have no problem with either. I'll be complaining myself if we start poorly. But I think if you're determined to take this season new and give this coach and system a fair shake as if last year didn't happen, the minimum is that quarter season mark.

I agree that 9games is fair for a new coach, but Dome isn’t new and he’s been installing his ideas to the core of the team for half a season. To separate him from last season would be turning a blind eye to very questionable decisions and subsequently damning results.

It’s the same as in business, a new manager comes in mid-project and the project ends up going south (when looking like good results will be realized), which could be chalked up to taking over a situation that had undetected underlying issues, so they get another go at a second project.

But the second project, which has had the full support of the the company for during implementation phase, also runs in to visibly troubling issues through the initial weeks. Any good company would already have a short leash in anticipation of a rocky start - they may not want to use it, but they’re ready, because waiting until the project is a quarter of the way complete can leave the EAC in a very troubling position with overruns. At that point, corrective measures have to be near perfect or its headed towards another writedown.

 

[ZYanksRule]

Allowed, literally? Any time you want. Not just because there's no effective way to stop you, either. I think it's the nature of being a fan that you're allowed to be capricious and unreasonable. Plus he did have 19 games last year.

But if you're determined to give him a fresh start and not start killing him until there's a decent sample size, I think the minimum is a quarter-season or 9 games. Anything less than that is way, way too subject to randomness. Frankly, I don't even think 9 games is sufficient to get fully past randomness, injuries, and learning curves. In 2016 the team PPG thru 15 games was 1.20. It was 1.89 after that. Last year it was 2.05 through 21 games and then 1.00 for the last 13. Yes, I know 2016 Vieira started from scratch with a worse roster, and Dome came in mid-year last year while things were good, and neither applies this season. But we've seen Dallas collapse utterly a couple of years ago after dominating the first half, and Seattle's recent second halves are becoming legendary. So no matter when you judge him, positive or negative, there's a chance things get much better, or worse, than even the first half of a season can tell. But waiting until a season is almost over is unrealistic.

So 9 games has always been when I start running the numbers on a season because I do think it's the bare minimum to have a decent sample size, even though things often turn upside-down along the way. And I think it's probably enough for eye test judgments also.

So sure, as ZYanksRule said, things will get ugly early if we don't start well, and adam is already targeting the first 4 games. And again, I have no problem with either. I'll be complaining myself if we start poorly. But I think if you're determined to take this season new and give this coach and system a fair shake as if last year didn't happen, the minimum is that quarter season mark.

I agree with the vast majority of this, aside from that you can't just make believe last year didn't happen. It did happen, and it was disastrous. What happened last year means he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in my mind. He needs a good start for me to have faith that he can actually coach in this league. I just don't think you can discount what happened last year. A good coach melds his system to his players, not the other way around.

 

[Christopher Jee]

He didn’t think a run of last season while we were losing was important either because he was experimenting. That seems to be his M.O. the guy doesn’t get a pass and needs to be taking results more seriously since he’s got a poor track record for comparison, because as of yet his tactics don’t seem to produce outcomes we can be proud of.

And I wonder if he’s gonna bench the winger opposite Lewis since that’s the person that didn't track on the first goal, or do they get treated differently?

And love that he’s gonna use our one real creative midfielder as the striker, a 5’0” striker at that.

I see your point on how results might matter more to some for Dome in particular since he doesn't have a track record. Genuine question - do you think if he was winning, it would give those same people more confidence in him? Personally I would like to think I would apply similar discounts on any upswings or downswings in confidence based on wins, draws or losses.

Re: benching the winger - wasn't clear to me who this was based on the highlights alone. Nothing about the pattern of play was clear to me apart from that Lewis looked threatening and that Maxi and Ofori both did things they don't normally do.

Re: using our shortest player as a striker - I posted at length about how corners are generally not valuable and that goals are scored differently but more or less equally when segmented for height of striker.

Additionally, he mentioned Maxi can be played there. He didn't say it was his plan A.