New Jersey (Away) - Postmatch

I guess it's not surprising, but Red Bull fans think we are "whining". I don't care what team you support, I don't see how you can pretend like that was a normal soccer situation. Any team on the unfortunate end of that kind of terrible refereeing would be pretty angry understandably. I don't think we are a team that typically loses our mind or whines more than others.
Exactly. This wasn’t a situation of the ref interpreting subjective play on the field by the teams. This was a structural issue with how the Ref/AR administered the match/communicated their instructions. This was like a traffic intersection cop waving a car through an intersection only to have another cop pull them over for running a red light.
 
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I'd also like to point out that after the Royer PK goal he wasn't behind the half-line before NYCFC kicked off. Kelly should have stopped play and allowed a restart as the Red Bulls committed an infraction.
 
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An article in Soccer by Ives is based on an interview with Alex Muyl about the play. He was the one who took the throw in. He says he did so quickly because he saw the ball go out and thought it was obviously a throw in. He had no idea that the signal was for a corner until after the game.

So, that settles whether anyone on the field heard anything about that being a throw in.
 
An article in Soccer by Ives is based on an interview with Alex Muyl about the play. He was the one who took the throw in. He says he did so quickly because he saw the ball go out and thought it was obviously a throw in. He had no idea that the signal was for a corner until after the game.

So, that settles whether anyone on the field heard anything about that being a throw in.
How does that settle anything? That’s just Muyl covering his ass after the fact with his alibi to why he took the throw. The AR was right in front of him, so if he didn’t see the signal for the CK, that also means he didn’t see a signal for a throw in. He made a play without knowing what was called.
 
Ring lives by my office. I've chatted with him before. Today he was not in the mood. I tried to ask him about the corner. He was honestly still pissed off about it. I know there's some comments about him having to control himself, but seeing him today showed me this guy is pure passion and emotion. I was happy to see it.
 
How does that settle anything? That’s just Muyl covering his ass after the fact with his alibi to why he took the throw. The AR was right in front of him, so if he didn’t see the signal for the CK, that also means he didn’t see a signal for a throw in. He made a play without knowing what was called.

No, I think that's his honest take. The Red Bulls like to move quickly and take teams unaware. Often throw ins happen very quickly, and players don't take time to confirm the call or see the signal.

I remember an incident from the NBA in the 1980s involving Larry Bird. My recollection is that it was during a critical playoff game against the 76ers. A ball went out of bounds, obviously off Boston. Bird picked the ball up, flipped it to the referee and waited to get it back to make the in bounds pass. The ref, not thinking quickly, just gave the ball back to Bird instead of giving it to the other team. Bird then threw an in bounds pass that led to an easy basket. By the time the ball was in the net, it was too late for the ref to do anything about it.

I think this might really be a similar situation. Muyl just took a throw in, and the refs were too chicken shit to do anything about it.
 
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Exactly. This wasn’t a situation of the ref interpreting subjective play on the field by the teams. This was a structural issue with how the Ref/AR administered the match/communicated their instructions. This was like a traffic intersection cop waving a car through an intersection only to have another cop pull them over for running a red light.
Actually it’s like a traffic cop waving a car through and causing an accident. And then the other cop covers for the first one.
 
https://www.newyorkredbulls.com/post/2019/07/14/press-conference-chris-armas-071419

Armas’ post-game presser. In the first two minutes he’s asked about what gave RB trouble in the first half and what was adjusted he mentions that NYCFC was spreading RB out by playing several people offside behind their defense and having Johnson play long balls instead of out of the back, as an example. Then they found a way to get back to playing compact and press us
 
https://www.newyorkredbulls.com/post/2019/07/14/press-conference-chris-armas-071419

Armas’ post-game presser. In the first two minutes he’s asked about what gave RB trouble in the first half and what was adjusted he mentions that NYCFC was spreading RB out by playing several people offside behind their defense and having Johnson play long balls instead of out of the back, as an example. Then they found a way to get back to playing compact and press us
He was interviewed going into half time and he said they’re going to push up the defenders and make the field more compact to close down the space.
 
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I've been trying to be more charitable about the lying bit, and the best I can come up with is the following, which is largely consistent with your explanation of what happened before the call.

I'm not saying this is true or even likely true but it is consistent with what we know. Kelly overrules the AR over the mike but says nothing out loud and makes no signal. The AR then points down with his left hand but the flag is still pointed to the corner and nobody notices. The AR also does say something, but with the corner crowd noise nobody hears him but the RB player right next to him, who alertly picks up the ball and does the quick throw in. [This one bit -- that the AR said something but nor loudly enough -- is the one bit I am somewhat certain of. It is the only explanation for why the RB player was so quick to take the throw in. That player never appears to look at the AR's left hand.]

Anyway, then I have to assume that Kelly is truthful, but arguably guilty of further game mismanagement after the call. If he did call the reversal, he should have said so and signaled as such immediately when Johnson approaches him screaming. Instead he signals for everyone to hold on while he talks to the AR, which I infer would just be to confirm that the AR announced the call change. Which he did, even if inaudibly. Kelly's lack of confident communication after the fact made things worse, and then, even moreso, he lets NYCFC vent for 3-4 minutes. I understand the concept that if an official thinks a team justifiably feels hard done by a call he stands by, he should give them some space to vent. Byt Kelly just stood there impassively for 3-4 minutes while NYCFC players lost it. He failed, by all appearances, to explain himself. He should have been saying over and over. "I did it. It was my call. I stand by it." But he never defended himself which made him appear like he though he messed up but lacked the nerve to fix it.

TLDR and bottom line, in order to acquit Kelly of the charge of dishonesty I have to explain it in a way that makes him seem even less competent.

Putting TLDR at the end of what you wrote defeats the spirit of TLDR.
 
He was interviewed going into half time and he said they’re going to push up the defenders and make the field more compact to close down the space.

I'm surprised coaches talk tactics like this at halftime. Why wasn't someone watching the feed and telling Dome and his coaches this at halftime?
 
Ring lives by my office. I've chatted with him before. Today he was not in the mood. I tried to ask him about the corner. He was honestly still pissed off about it. I know there's some comments about him having to control himself, but seeing him today showed me this guy is pure passion and emotion. I was happy to see it.

He's so awesome. Ring and Tinnerholm are the heartbeat of this team.
 
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Was it ever discussed- the play at the end where Maxi was knocked over an the RB player literally ran over him to play the ball and no foul was called?

At that point it seemed like the ref just was sick of NYCFC complaining about the Throw-in/CK debate, and decided to ignore fouls. That came after the RB player danced along the endline with it going out and no call.
 
This is the reason he's captain and not Maxi. Maxi probably cares, but not as much as Ring does.
Beware equating showing emotion and having emotion. Some people have all the same passion but just don't show it as obviously. I certainly wouldn't bet on Maxi not caring as much as Ring or anyone.

And conversely, some people show a ton of emotion, not because they care but simply because they are out-of-control hot heads.
 
I would never question the heart of a professional athlete. They all care. Some show it to the fans differently, but they all care. You don't get to be a professional athlete at this level without caring.
I never said he doesn't care. I said one cares more than the other. That's a real possibility.
 
Was it ever discussed- the play at the end where Maxi was knocked over an the RB player literally ran over him to play the ball and no foul was called?

At that point it seemed like the ref just was sick of NYCFC complaining about the Throw-in/CK debate, and decided to ignore fouls. That came after the RB player danced along the endline with it going out and no call.

Watching it live, I didn't think the ball went out. The entire ball has to cross the entire white line and from what I could see, it never really did that. Of course, it comes down to a judgment call by the AR at that point as well. But the bigger question is how he was able to get past all of our defenders while teetering on the end line. Our guys should not be worrying about whether it is out and just defend. The foul on maxi as a non-call is inexcusable though. Kelly had lost it at that point, I think.

He was interviewed going into half time and he said they’re going to push up the defenders and make the field more compact to close down the space.

I'm sure Dome realized this in the 2nd half as well, but for some reason did not adjust for this change. Instead, we walked right into the Red Bulls tactics and started playing out of the back instead of going long like we had been. I'd much rather fight for a 50/50 ball in their half than try to pass out of the back with their high press and Ibeagha on the ball. We aren't barca, unfortunately.

We need better tactics for high pressing teams when they adjust to our tactics. Red bulls also took away our wing backs a lot more in the 2nd half, which basically eliminated our diagonal switches. They also pinched their far side defender into the middle to equalize midfield numbers and make it harder for us to play through the middle where we outnumbered them in the first half. These are all things Armas talked about in his half time and post match interviews. Dome is no fool. I'm sure he saw it, but I don't think we had the personnel to attack a compact defense, which is best with 1v1 dribbling players who cause havoc and make the defensive team lose their shape, creating space for others. GMS may be that guy for us while Mitri and ITS are still injured. Can't wait to see him more. Seems like he's already pretty in tune with Heber to be able to find him on that last shot (WHICH HE SHOULD HAVE BURIED).

Next game without Chanot and Ring are gonna be rough. Hopefully, Sands will be back but we'll probably see Rocha in the back line. He's been playing well his last few outings but the Rapids are a counter attack team with a lot of pace - which is Rocha's weak point.

THOUGHTS ON REF BOTCHED CALL

those saying we fell asleep, quick corner would have been the same thing, etc - no. maxi and parks were ready to defend a quick corner even if our other guys weren't technically ready in the box. their mind set at the time was CONFUSION cause the AR was calling CK and Kelly was basically thinking throw-in and allowing play to go on. They were probably thinking play would be called back because the red bulls obviously did the wrong thing and weren't defending as aggressively as they probably should have. If it was a quick corner - we would have been more prepared for it mentally.

Kelly is a joke and he's MLS's "best ref". Just shows how poor refs in this league are. Dome hit it right on the head when he said if the league wants to improve, refs need to improve as well. I fully support that TIFO being created. Unfortunately, refs aren't announced that early so it'd be difficult to plan.
 
Watching it live, I didn't think the ball went out. The entire ball has to cross the entire white line and from what I could see, it never really did that. Of course, it comes down to a judgment call by the AR at that point as well. But the bigger question is how he was able to get past all of our defenders while teetering on the end line. Our guys should not be worrying about whether it is out and just defend. The foul on maxi as a non-call is inexcusable though. Kelly had lost it at that point, I think.



I'm sure Dome realized this in the 2nd half as well, but for some reason did not adjust for this change. Instead, we walked right into the Red Bulls tactics and started playing out of the back instead of going long like we had been. I'd much rather fight for a 50/50 ball in their half than try to pass out of the back with their high press and Ibeagha on the ball. We aren't barca, unfortunately.

We need better tactics for high pressing teams when they adjust to our tactics. Red bulls also took away our wing backs a lot more in the 2nd half, which basically eliminated our diagonal switches. They also pinched their far side defender into the middle to equalize midfield numbers and make it harder for us to play through the middle where we outnumbered them in the first half. These are all things Armas talked about in his half time and post match interviews. Dome is no fool. I'm sure he saw it, but I don't think we had the personnel to attack a compact defense, which is best with 1v1 dribbling players who cause havoc and make the defensive team lose their shape, creating space for others. GMS may be that guy for us while Mitri and ITS are still injured. Can't wait to see him more. Seems like he's already pretty in tune with Heber to be able to find him on that last shot (WHICH HE SHOULD HAVE BURIED).

Next game without Chanot and Ring are gonna be rough. Hopefully, Sands will be back but we'll probably see Rocha in the back line. He's been playing well his last few outings but the Rapids are a counter attack team with a lot of pace - which is Rocha's weak point.

THOUGHTS ON REF BOTCHED CALL

those saying we fell asleep, quick corner would have been the same thing, etc - no. maxi and parks were ready to defend a quick corner even if our other guys weren't technically ready in the box. their mind set at the time was CONFUSION cause the AR was calling CK and Kelly was basically thinking throw-in and allowing play to go on. They were probably thinking play would be called back because the red bulls obviously did the wrong thing and weren't defending as aggressively as they probably should have. If it was a quick corner - we would have been more prepared for it mentally.

Kelly is a joke and he's MLS's "best ref". Just shows how poor refs in this league are. Dome hit it right on the head when he said if the league wants to improve, refs need to improve as well. I fully support that TIFO being created. Unfortunately, refs aren't announced that early so it'd be difficult to plan.
Switching to the 4-3-3 (possibly 4-4-2 diamond) was the move with the personnel, but it came too late. Whenever we have trouble playing out of the back, putting an extra man in central midfield (or two) tends to unclog the pipes. Not sure why Dome waited so long either tbh