A Letter to Patricof

[Nick Chavez]

Wow, fantastic job taking his point out of context and attaching charged adjectives to it.

What is socially acceptable, right or wrong, in another country does not make it socially acceptable in this county and this city. Having a common respect for the general population/your neighbor, whether you know them or not, while holding one another to a higher level of verbal discourse IS a higher set of standards, and if you want to label that as bigoted/racist then you're missing the point completely while hijacking those terms.

He said "We have better standards than Central America" ("puto" chant is in Mexico, by the way, which is part of North America and not considered part of Central America). That can be considered highly offensive, and rightfully so.

As I said, if you want people to follow your moral rules of not offending anyone, follow those rules yourself. Don't be a hypocrite. And if he didn't mean it, he better be more careful with his words because ones words is all we have to go by.

 

[Vallos]

How about chants based on opposing teams each time they visit. So in addition to developing traditional home team chants, we develop the same way for visiting teams. For instance, Red Bulls would be Jersey. Orlando would be kittens. Toronto would be Tree saps (Maple tree connotation), admittedly corny, but you get the gist. Something funny and mischievous.

 

[adam]

He said "We have better standards than Central America" ("puto" chant is in Mexico, by the way, which is part of North America and not considered part of Central America). That can be considered highly offensive, and rightfully so.

As I said, if you want people to follow your moral rules of not offending anyone, follow those rules yourself. Don't be a hypocrite. And if he didn't mean it, he better be more careful with his words because ones words is all we have to go by.

I really didn't want to get too involved in this, but I'm sorry some moral standards ARE BETTER, and we can't be too PC about that and claim offense. When gay men are hung in the street in Iran, or bulls are slaughtered for fun by a matador in Spain, women are treated as chattel in Saudi Arabia, or Puto is chanted by tens of thousands of people in a Central American stadium; all these things are wrong. Yes, they may be culturally acceptable in the nation they occur and there are many people in each instance standing around cheering for each one of those things. But they are not cheering because it's morally equivalent to our standards, it's because they have been brought up in a society with a flawed morality when it comes to those (and maybe other) issues. When something is wrong, we must call it out as wrong if the world is ever to grow and change for the better. Can I place blame or claim moral outrage at the soccer fan that chants Puto in their stadium in Mexico? No, nor can I do the same for the cannibal in Borneo who eats a tourist. They were both brought up in a society with distinct mores, but their actions are still WRONG, even if I can't blame them for not realizing it. You don't eat people, you don't kill innocent animals for sport, you don't hang men for their sexual preference, you don't take away all of someone's rights because they are a woman, and you don't join in a crowd to chant any word that is offensive & alienating to another group (especially if they may be right there in the crowd!).

So please don't go and get offended when we make morality judgements, sometimes they must be made to tell the difference between right and wrong.

Now back to the issue at hand. These people chanting may have been brought up in a different society with different mores, and I can't blame them for not realizing the chant is offensive because of that. But now they have no excuse, they are aware and they also made a conscience choice to move here to NYC, one of the most free and accepting cities in the world. So, figure it out and treat other people with the respect that you just asked for when crying over a comparison over whose society is better.

 

[Ulrich]

He said "We have better standards than Central America" ("puto" chant is in Mexico, by the way, which is part of North America and not considered part of Central America). That can be considered highly offensive, and rightfully so.

As I said, if you want people to follow your moral rules of not offending anyone, follow those rules yourself. Don't be a hypocrite. And if he didn't mean it, he better be more careful with his words because ones words is all we have to go by.

And again, you're taking something out of context - on this thread, WTF cares if he referred to North America or Central America - the context of the statement was about what is deemed socially acceptable in a Mexican Stadium & society (you're smart enough to recognize that, and even if you aren't, your notorious powers of clairvoyance should have guided you) vs what is socially acceptable in the United States, or more specifically in New York City.

Any offense taken by a Mexican being labeled as somebody from Central America is akin to a Canadian being confused with an American - it just isn't there because it isn't derogatory, it's ignorance. Something highly offensive would be what my grandfather was called growing up, a yid or a kike - the purest form of hate speech. The offense felt from the Puto chant, to anybody from the LGBT community is immense, and it's unacceptable - it's also hate speech whether directed at them or around them.

Surely you can see the difference because it's not difficult and it's not hypocritical and everybody but you seems to understand that telling somebody to refrain from using hate speech is not an act of offending them.

 

[engine46]

I don't get it. It only took a few days to spread the word that "Come on, New York" was happening in the fifth minute, and it happened. Why is stopping this one turning out to be so difficult?

 

[anamorican]

And again, you're taking something out of context - on this thread, WTF cares if he referred to North America or Central America

"The UN geoscheme for "North America" separates Mexico from the United States and Canada, placing it instead within its designated "Central America" region."

We can take it up with UN, some of them are probably still in town. I didn't want to leave out anyone in Guatemala or Honduras screaming hateful things.

 

[leilanikali420]

I have been off of the Forums for about 2 weeks - as the tweens say "because...life"

If it is not too late - FootyLovin please add my name to anything that speaks out against this ridiculously deplorable chant. And for what it is worth from my view from 136 I have seen Rox try to stop the chant on multiple occasions - and then watched the people in 137 basically tell him to F-Off and do the chant. It is sad.

In our second year we have a great opportunity to continue to build something from the ground up and some fans choose to act willfully or deliberately ignorant under the guise of supporting as they do in other cultures - whether it be this chant or "hooliganism".

This is NYC. It is not Mexico, Central/South America, Philadephia, Spain, the Middle East, or Russia. No P*to chants. No hate speech. No throwing debris on the pitch. No monkey noises. No smoke bombs. No fist fights with "rival supporters." No sexual assault. It is a really simple list and can be filed under "decency".

 

[NYCFC_Dan]

Thanks to you guys and Jon for getting this going.

https://twitter.com/x/status/779464068474298368

 

[EganSoccerWords]

had to bitch out some people in 214a in the first half...smh

 

[LionNYC]

Yeah, I heard it tonight. In the first half from the first base side and then also in the second half.

 

[gbservis]

The chant was relentless in 134 tonight. Truly disgusting. All attempts to call them out for their crap unfortunately only seemed to encourage them. I didn't think I could dislike those that participate in this chant anymore until I started thinking about it tonight. All of last season when we sucked, no p*to chant, when we got off to a slow start at the beginning of this year no p*to chant, we start winning, we are about to make the playoffs and the stupid p*to chant is everywhere. Not only do these aholes have questionable morals but they are also clearly despicable front runners. Are we allowed to despise fair weather, front runner fans, or is that some sort of cultural misunderstanding too?

 

[Fantazma]

Lots moral high horse around here, nevertheless the efforts are to be continued I know some people were kicked out in supporters sections and I heard there was massive presence of securitas in between 236/237

One thing is for sure, those that did it will probably chant it more now that it's been brought up. Only concern is that the wrong people get kicked out, I've heard people get kicked out / banned for other things when it wasn't them who did it (like all the smoke bomb stuff last year)

 

[SoupInNYC]

Was in 237 last night and the chant seemed to calm down a bit, but there was still a decent amount of people getting it going, especially in the second half when Johnson had his back to us.

I thought the blue sheets were a great move by the club. I didn't visually see it happening, but I'm quite certain a few people got tossed for yelling "p*to". I remember one girl in front of me complaining that this was bullshit, its a soccer game, etc. etc. so I assumed one of her friends got tossed.

I considered going over and talking to her but decided against it as I'm not certain she really would have listened to me as her and her friends were sounding off.

Ultimately, the team served notice, and people still did it. Its not "bullshit" that they were tossed for something they were warned about. "Its a soccer game" holds ZERO weight with me. This isn't a place where hate and homophobia are allowed.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Considering the great dialogue we are having here about it, perhaps using the platform you have to take this dialogue to a broader audience and inform them on the offense that this particular chant has. Inform people on the nuance of while not used in a particular manner meant to be offensive, that the use of a term derived from it is in fact offensive, as anamorican pointed out:

"If the insult is built on this homophobic foundation, then can its use be anything but homophobic, even if not directed at a gay person with the intent to attack his sexual identity?"

I think the platform you hold and the fans that you can reach can go a long ways into educating individuals on this. And I believe, considering the great points you are making, you fully understand the nuances that need to be considered in delivering such a message.

I do really appreciate your willingness for ideas on this.

So what do you think Nick Chavez ? Several people were tossed last night for chanting this and I don't think this is something that is easily going to go away.

Considering the platform you have, the twitter following you have, the nuances you have spoken about this situation, would you consider getting something out there calling for this to stop?

You mention there may be confusion as to the meaning of the word. The gay community here in NYC finds it offensive, the club deems it as offensive and as grounds for removal. Helping to clear this up can only help the cause for removing hateful speech from our supporters section (and I also really don't like being associated with a hateful supporters group), and will help ensure that others are not tossed from future games.

You asked for ideas on how you can help, I think this is a good start. I'm definitely open to keep this dialogue going.

 

[LionNYC]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-27/pro-sports-leagues-fly-the-rainbow-flag

It would have been great if NYCFC could have been included in this article, you know, with that pride night that was supposed to happen vs. LA.

"JoAnn Neale, Major League Soccer’s chief administrative officer, says her league’s goal is to create what she calls a “safe place” for everyone, fans and athletes alike, by not tolerating any discrimination at the stadium. MLS rules prohibit homophobic slurs."

 

[SoupInNYC]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-27/pro-sports-leagues-fly-the-rainbow-flag

It would have been great if NYCFC could have been included in this article, you know, with that pride night that was supposed to happen vs. LA.

"JoAnn Neale, Major League Soccer’s chief administrative officer, says her league’s goal is to create what she calls a “safe place” for everyone, fans and athletes alike, by not tolerating any discrimination at the stadium. MLS rules prohibit homophobic slurs."

Thanks for sharing this Lion. Definitely would have been great to have been included in this article, but not sure some of the actions from our supporters sections help with that.

We definitely could use some help from our local writers who have a decent platform to help extinguish that. I know Nick Chavez mentioned he was willing to listen to ideas on how he can help.

 

[Nick Chavez]

So what do you think Nick Chavez ? Several people were tossed last night for chanting this and I don't think this is something that is easily going to go away.

Considering the platform you have, the twitter following you have, the nuances you have spoken about this situation, would you consider getting something out there calling for this to stop?

You mention there may be confusion as to the meaning of the word. The gay community here in NYC finds it offensive, the club deems it as offensive and as grounds for removal. Helping to clear this up can only help the cause for removing hateful speech from our supporters section (and I also really don't like being associated with a hateful supporters group), and will help ensure that others are not tossed from future games.

You asked for ideas on how you can help, I think this is a good start. I'm definitely open to keep this dialogue going.

IF I write anything about the puto chant, it will be done my way. That means some of you might not like or totally agree with some of the things I have to say or how I frame it, but remember, this isn't about you or how you feel. It's about being pragmatic and effective in convincing the people I need to convince to volunteer to stop yelling puto. Because it is their choice, at the end of the day.

Shaming them, pontificating to them or misrepresenting their intentions will not be effective, so I will not be doing that. I will be honestly reasoning with them, considering their views, and considering how they feel about all of it, if anything.

Just keep that in mind if/when a piece about it comes out and don't be surprised about it. The most important thing is that it's effective.

 

[northernburbs]

Gestla, don't worry too much about it and don't worry about waiting for other people to speak first that are "more knowledgeable".

I know you were trying to help uncover what was going on in that thread and it turned out to be one guy starting a rumor. You in fact were just trying to confirm what the flag looked like and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

The main issue that I have here isn't even so much that the rumor was started (though I do think that guy who started that rumor was completely off-base, and not like mistaken off base, like that had to be created out of nowhere for some purpose off-base). The main issue I have here is moreso that someone who is "in the media" and has a strong presence took that rumor and ran with it as if it was fact:

https://twitter.com/x/status/777872062052503552

That tweet pretty much says that the flag was in YS. And then when the whole thing was figured out, he thanked the guy for getting to the bottom of it, that created the whole rumor, but yet did not actually dispel the rumor or take his original tweets down. So much that other sites and fans picked it up, and some probably actually believe that we have a Nazi flag in our Supporters Section. (You will note that while Christian has not updated anything, the metrosoccer site itself has updated their story to note that it was a false rumor.

Don't worry about "your role" in this and continue to be involved online (and on here!).

For what its worth
This guy has 850 followers on twitter.
our own mgarbowski has about 3000.

 

[SoupInNYC]

IF I write anything about the puto chant, it will be done my way. That means some of you might not like or totally agree with some of the things I have to say or how I frame it, but remember, this isn't about you or how you feel. It's about being pragmatic and effective in convincing the people I need to convince to volunteer to stop yelling puto. Because it is their choice, at the end of the day.

Shaming them, pontificating to them or misrepresenting their intentions will not be effective, so I will not be doing that. I will be honestly reasoning with them, considering their views, and considering how they feel about all of it, if anything.

Just keep that in mind if/when a piece about it comes out and don't be surprised about it. The most important thing is that it's effective.

Completely understand that. Like I said, I think you understand some of the intricacies involved and are probably a good voice that understands the acceptability of this in other cultures but how this comes across as offensive here.

And I understand what you mean by convincing them to volunteer to stop yelling p*to. But also understand, that YS security is now starting to throw people out after warning the whole supporters section. So its also be the choice of Securitas/Yankee Stadium policy.

Appreciate your willingness on this Nick Chavez

 

[adam]

More news on the Puto Chant. Apparently FIFA is not happy with it and fined Mexico $20k for its fans using it in the USA match.

http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/sto...ants-usa-vs-mexico-world-cup-qualifier-121916