A Letter to Patricof

[Goodfella]

"NNNNNNNN YYYYYYYY CCCCCCCCCC". Somewhat similar to what the Jets fans do, but without the repeating and whatnot so its not too close (and Giants fans may feel ok joining in too, haha).

NNNNNNNN YYYYYYYY CCCCCCCCCC
AHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hmmmmm, I think I like that....

 

[joe]

NNNNNNNN YYYYYYYY CCCCCCCCCC
AHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hmmmmm, I think I like that....

Strong.

 

[Nick Chavez]

Nick Chavez, we don't know each other, and I apologize for beginning with a critique, but I find your response to the P*to chant underwhelming.


This doesn't hold. If the end of the chant was the n-word, but it wasn't intended to be hateful towards blacks, no one would care about intentions. This shouldn't be different.

Not exactly. Technically, the word "puto" means "male prostitute". Not necessary a gay slur. And in Mexico and some Latin american countries it's also used more as an equivalent of a "coward" or "traitor". Furthermore, if we were using the N-word, everyone in our country knows what it means, making it clearly offensive to more people.

"Puto" is a Spanish word, and clearly not everyone in the stadium or in here knows what it means, and it's only recently that some people have been making a big deal about it. And the people usually upset about it are people who are not of a Hispanic background, and don't speak the language. If you listen in Mexican stadiums, clearly they don't take much offense to it since it's such a loud, unified chant. So, your example is a bit different. In the US, that difference is even more pronounced since most people in the stadium or at home only speak English and don't know what the word means.

A big issue here is telling people, while you're not (or maybe not you, but most complaining aren't) a part of their home football culture in Mexico, not to say a word in their language, and telling them what they mean by it (Again, I can tell you, they're not saying it directed towards gays). That's never going to go over well, and it may not be an effective strategy in general, since they may just keep on doing it out of spite as in, "These Gringos (meaning Americans/Canadians; I am also one) aren't going to tell me what I can or cannot say in my own f***ing language."

That's how they may feel, and if you want to influence any change/compromise, you had better start thinking about how they think/feel as well.

You are basically washing your hands of it and saying it's up to the supporters. But you are a vocal, known member of the community.

I'll give this to Araos, if he thought there was a Nazi flag in the SS, the right thing to do is to speak out against it. You have a platform and a voice that matters to some. Maybe you're right and trolls are gonna troll. But some people do listen to you. And to shrug your shoulders and say "not my problem" doesn't impress me.

If you were anyone else, I might not write this. But you have been extremely outspoken on this forum at various times critiquing the judgement and ethics of others covering NYCFC. Yet I see you setting a pretty low standard here on this issue.

Now, let's talk about my personal feelings. I haven't spoken much about it since, my personal morals tell me I shouldn't be telling people what they can and cannot say, especially in their language, and especially when they don't mean at all the meaning of the word that everyone seems so hellbent on forcing on the word and them. I think that happens too often nowadays, and I consider free speech maybe our most important freedom. It goes against my principles to do that and pontificate in that way.

So, I've stayed out of it on either side, and let the fans hash it out. The only thing that's making me consider acting is how gays may feel about the chant. If they are feeling uncomfortable from it, feeling unwelcome, and feel like it's somehow directed at them, then that's a reason to take a stand against it.

With all of that said, what do you suggest I do? Serious question. I don't know that I hold as much influence over the fans as you guys think, and if I do, I rarely see much evidence of it. Let me know what you think.

 

[Nick Chavez]

I'm not certain I follow this particular line of thinking around the intentions of using the word. The word itself doesn't mean "F*** You", so why does it have that particular connotation when its being used in this regard?" It is a homophobic slur, so is it a "F*** You" because in essence, it being a homophobic slur is derogatory? Whether or not the intention is to be hateful towards the gay community?

I look at it this way, back when I was in high school, I and many others quite often used the term f*ggot when messing around with friends. In essence, it was a "f*** you" or a "you're an asshole", etc. etc. There was no connotation (at least speaking for myself when I used to use it) of it being hateful towards the gay community. However, it was an extremely disrespectful homophobic slur that even though it wasn't being used as such, still had that same impact. However, even though it was used quite often, you never heard 60,000 people chant out "f*ggot" as an NFL kicker kicks off.

I know many people in the supporters section know this and choose to ignore it. In fact, the several people I confronted in the supporters section about it had no response. Several actually didn't really know what it meant and had joined in with others. But I remember two in specific that kept on repeating "Everyone has their own opinion". I would follow up with "Well whats your opinion?" and got the same response "Everyone has their own opinion." I have yet to hear a reasonable answer as to why that chant should be yelled.

I do also understand that some people get caught up in it and join in because others are doing it. I think those are the ones that are most important to get through to because I do think that is a large group of people. Additionally, I think others may just be somewhat immature and not really understand the impact that using a term such as that does (like me in high school in my example above). Its important to also get through to those individuals so they understand the impact that this has.

Ultimately, what I ask people when I hear them chant it, is would they say the exact same thing in front of their gay friends. Or would they say the equivalent of it in English in front of their gay friends.

Nick you do bring up some good points about fighting against it will make people want to do it more. We've already seen the facebook group name change and now apparently you can buy t-shirts with "p*to" on it. However, that doesn't mean we should sit by and accept it. And I think you have a great opportunity with your outreach to help on this.

Alternative chants to yell would be fantastic, as to not only drown out those that want to continue yelling disrespectful and oppressive slurs. But it also has the opportunity to create something unique and New York. One option I was thinking about this morning is what if we had the built up before the kick, and then everyone at once chanted "NNNNNNNN YYYYYYYY CCCCCCCCCC". Somewhat similar to what the Jets fans do, but without the repeating and whatnot so its not too close (and Giants fans may feel ok joining in too, haha).

As for Mexican/Latin American usage of the word "puto", refer to my post before this.

I agree, something else should be used, something unique, funny and edgy that will attract/convert some of the "puto" chanters, but also keep you guys out of trouble with the perpetually offended and Garber (think YSA; avoid that). Again the "AAAAAH AAAAAH" thing is funny and can catch on.

And I'll reiterate that some people just don't want to be told what to do, they're exhausted and fed up with people telling them that everything they say is offensive and what they mean by it, especially when these people don't even speak the language of the word, and they'll continue to do it because they know there's no real consequence to it, and as a big "f*** you" to "authority" or people trying to act like they're some authority.

Therefore, I think coming up with a replacement and trying to get it to catch on is the best strategy, these guys already know how you feel about it. They don't care, and they're having fun watching you wail and gnash teeth about it. Supporters Group types are rebellious and punkish by nature, anyways, usually. They live to be edgy, tell people off, be loud and sometimes obnoxious.

All of that said, let me know what you think I should do exactly and I'll consider it..

 

[Goodfella]

Not exactly. Technically, the word "puto" means "male prostitute". Not necessary a gay slur. And in Mexico and some Latin american countries it's also used more as an equivalent of a "coward" or "traitor". Furthermore, if we were using the N-word, everyone in our country knows what it means, making it clearly offensive to more people.

"Puto" is a Spanish word, and clearly not everyone in the stadium or in here knows what it means, and it's only recently that some people have been making a big deal about it. And the people usually upset about it are people who are not of a Hispanic background, and don't speak the language. If you listen in Mexican stadiums, clearly they don't take much offense to it since it's such a loud, unified chant. So, your example is a bit different. In the US, that difference is even more pronounced since most people in the stadium or at home only speak English and don't know what the word means.

A big issue here is telling people, while you're not (or maybe not you, but most complaining aren't) a part of their home football culture in Mexico, not to say a word in their language, and telling them what they mean by it (Again, I can tell you, they're not saying it directed towards gays). That's never going to go over well, and it may not be an effective strategy in general, since they may just keep on doing it out of spite it as in, "These Gringos (North Americans; I am also one) aren't going to tell me what I can or cannot say in my own f***ing language."

That's how they may feel, and if you want to influence any change/compromise, you had better start thinking about how they think/feel as well.



Now, let's talk about my personal feelings. I haven't spoken much about it since, my personal morals tell me I shouldn't be telling people what they can and cannot say, especially in their language, and especially when they don't mean at all the meaning of the word that everyone seems so hellbent on forcing on the word and them. I think that happens too often nowadays, and I consider free speech maybe our most important freedom. It goes against my principles to do that and pontificate in that way.

So, I've stayed out of it on either side, and let the fans hash it out. The only thing that's making me consider acting is how gays may feel about the chant. If they are feeling uncomfortable from it, feeling unwelcome, and feel like it's somehow directed at them, then that's a reason to take a stand against it.

With all of that said, what do you suggest I do? Serious question. I don't know that I hold as much influence over the fans as you guys think, and if I do, I rarely see much evidence of it. Let me know what you think.

Good stuff and thoughtful as well. I think what you can do is to start the dialogue via the platform that you have. I think that even more so based on your last response. It's not so much telling people what to do as it is asking them to think about the likely unwanted effect of what they're doing. Maybe an article on the topic examining it with first hand accounts & opinions from both sides of the issue. You may not have influence per se but you do have reach.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Not exactly. Technically, the word "puto" means "male prostitute". Not necessary a gay slur. And in Mexico and some Latin american countries it's also used more as an equivalent of a "coward" or "traitor". Furthermore, if we were using the N-word, everyone in our country knows what it means, making it clearly offensive to more people.

I do appreciate the responses and plan to have some more dialogue to your posts in general when I can find some time. But I think you cut the technical definition of the word well short.

First hit on Google:
The Spanish Royal Academy Dictionary (Diccionario de la Real Academia Española) provides four definitions, three adjectives and one noun. The noun 'puto' is defined as “Man who has copulation with a person of his sex.”

Seriously, google "what does the word puto mean".

Again, "technically" the word f*ggot means a "bundle of sticks". I think my example of the use of that word (which has dramatically dropped) is a great example in relation to this.

I think getting into the conversation of understanding the intentions of what each person means by each word is a very dangerous place and pretty much takes all constraints off of every word as they mean something different to different people.

 

[FootyLovin]

I see your points and we diverge.

Technically, the word "puto" means "male prostitute". Not necessary a gay slur.

SoupInNYC covered this.

clearly not everyone in the stadium or in here knows what it means

In a lot of ways, this is one of the major points. This isn't a campaign to get people who understand it and love shouting this to stop. This is (I believe) an awareness campaign to get people who are joining in to understand.

If we all used our various platforms to simply point out or even ask, "Are you aware when you scream "puto", that it's a homophobic slur? Is that really what you want?"

The only thing that's making me consider acting is how gays may feel about the chant.

If the word were nigger or spic or kike, you wouldn't wait around to see if the various groups were offended. You'd know it was wrong. Hell, even just writing those words out as examples feels wrong.

And I don't buy the whole "it's their word" argument. So that means we can all shout slurs in our own language, and it's okay?

I do feel it is all of our place to be vocal and open about reducing this kind of speech. I get it that plenty of these supporters don't hate gays and don't want gays to feel bad. PC has a bad name. But speaking up against coordinated shouting of slurs, yeah, I think that's good PC.

 

[SoupInNYC]

As a follow up to this, I found this particular article on the word and especially found the paragraph quoted below particular interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/holly-r-cashman/mexico-world-cup-puto_b_5522856.html

"What exactly does ‘puto’ mean? Well, like most words, it means a lot of things, and its meaning and use vary by context. The Spanish Royal Academy Dictionary(Diccionario de la Real Academia Española) provides four definitions, three adjectives and one noun. The noun ‘puto’ is defined as “Man who has copulation with a person of his sex.” It is not highlighted as offensive or derogatory as other words are in the dictionary, although this of course does not mean that people do not find it offensive. As Geoffrey Nunberg points out in his recent piece in the Atlantic about the question of “Redskins,” even if a word has a “benign origin,” it can develop a derogatory meaning and the force of a slur because over time the word may be “infused with the attitudes about the thing it names.” Negative attitudes about homosexuality and non-heteronormative gender identities mean words describing LGBTQ people may become infused with negative connotations. Wordreference.com, a top online dictionary, in contrast, does label the use ‘offensive’ and translates it as ‘fag, faggot.’ As I mention in an earlier piece that I wrote about George Lopez’s highly problematic use of ‘maspoot’ (from ‘más puto’), the meaning and use of ‘puto’ was debated internationally when the Mexican rock band Molotov released a song in the late 1990s with that word as its title. Then the band’s defense was that ‘puto’ was simply being used an insult term against corrupt Mexican government officials, equivalent to ‘jerk’ or ‘wimp,’ and not related to sexual orientation. This should sound familiar to those who have read or heard the justifications by those who have used “fag” or “faggot” in public discourse and refused to apologize, from Ann Coulter to Eminem. However, as with ‘faggot’ in English, the insult word gets its sting from the homophobic belief that being gay is something to be ashamed of and that a man who has sex with men is one of the worst things you can call someone. If the insult is built on this homophobic foundation, then can its use be anything but homophobic, even if not directed at a gay person with the intent to attack his sexual identity?"

 

[anamorican]

"If the insult is built on this homophobic foundation, then can its use be anything but homophobic, even if not directed at a gay person with the intent to attack his sexual identity?"

And that's the winner right there.

Also, I don't really care what 60,000 people in a stadium in Central America find socially acceptable. You don't get to pull that shit here, especially in New York. We have better standards and we should live up to them. If that means fans who find it so important to yell slurs stop coming to games then so be it. I don't want them in my section/fanbase/support anyway.

 

[Vallos]

Here is an article from Vice, detailing the history of the chant in Mexico and the subsequent defensive posture most Mexicans are taking.

https://news.vice.com/article/mexico-soccer-fans-debate-use-of-controversial-puto-chant

“We say it without thinking of a man penetrating another,” soccer writer Mauricio Cabrera argued. “What’s more, we don’t even say it to them [gay men], at least not to their faces. We’ve been educated to be respectful when we detect a gay man among us. Except when one is our friend, which then is allowed.”

edit:
I didn't post this in defense of using the chant, but to give voice to those who originated the usage. For the record, I'm against it. The message clearly should be, "Its not what the word means in your country, but how people in this country feel about it. Please respect."

 

[Nick Chavez]

And that's the winner right there.

Also, I don't really care what 60,000 people in a stadium in Central America find socially acceptable. You don't get to pull that shit here, especially in New York. We have better standards and we should live up to them. If that means fans who find it so important to yell slurs stop coming to games then so be it. I don't want them in my section/fanbase/support anyway.

Quite an offensive thing to say that you know for sure that you, and New York in general, "have better standards" than "Central Americans." Whether it can be argued true or not, that's just as offensive as the "puto" chant, if not more so, so watch yourself.

Also, that kind of arguably racist/bigoted talk won't get you very far with the Hispanic minds you're trying to change. If you want people to follow your rules, you better start following them yourself.

 

[Lasker]

I think it important to stop the puto chant, but I think Nick Chavez has good points about the difficulties of doing so. It really is a completely different and more complicated problem than, say, YSA was for the Red Bulls.

I also haven't said much about it here because I feel like a jackass spouting off about it in the forums when I know that I have not been willing to call out a strangers about it at a game.

My view (and experience) is that you have a better chance to change people's behavior if you have some kind of common ground you can meet on. You could say if you're both fans of the same team that's enough but I don't think it is. Maybe being part of the same supporters group is enough. Maybe when it is a tighter group, like a set of away fans, that is good enough. Maybe.

I think the four main approaches I have seen here are all good and if they were all pursued they would likely be effective within a year if not sooner:

1) Put pressure on the club to produce some kind of content discouraging the chant. Good on FootyLovin for leading the way on this.

2) Drown it out/seduce would be chanters with alternatives - hat tip Goodfella and Bxfsc

3) Supporters group-led campaigns against it with banners, shirts, etc.

4) Be ready to call out people who do the chant when you hear it. Maybe I'll get there. I'm talking myself into it as we speak. I think with this it is important to bear in mind that you haven't necessarily failed if the chanters tell you to fuck off. A) they might reconsider later and B) Someone who feels hurt by the chant might hear you and take heart. You don't have to start an argument and win, (unlikely for all the reasons pointed out by Nick Chavez ) just register an objection and hopefully plant a seed of doubt that makes them choose to join in another chant the next game.

The silence (to my knowledge - and I'd be very happy to be corrected if I am wrong) of our biggest supporters group on the topic is notable and regrettable.

 

[Nick Chavez]

No, Lasker, I said I do agree in at least 2 posts about it (Hell, I even put it in bold), I was just explaining my initial reservations to lend my voice to either side of the argument.

 

[JayH]

Great thoughts and considerations all around. (yoooooouuuuuvvve gooooooot) BLUE BALLS may be just edgy enough to unite the masses! Keep the dialogue going.

 

[anamorican]

Quite an offensive thing to say that you know for sure that you, and New York in general, "have better standards" than "Central Americans." Whether it can be argued true or not, that's just as offensive as the "puto" chant, if not more so, so watch yourself.

Also, that kind of arguably racist/bigoted talk won't get you very far with the Hispanic minds you're trying to change. If you want people to follow your rules, you better start following them yourself.

If you don't think that we have (or should have) a more understanding and accepting culture in the NY area than the countries where the Puto chant is most often heard (Central America, not Central Americans here in the US thanks for the misquote) then we can disagree about that.

 

[Nick Chavez]

Good stuff and thoughtful as well. I think what you can do is to start the dialogue via the platform that you have. I think that even more so based on your last response. It's not so much telling people what to do as it is asking them to think about the likely unwanted effect of what they're doing. Maybe an article on the topic examining it with first hand accounts & opinions from both sides of the issue. You may not have influence per se but you do have reach.

Good ideas, and I agree that needs to be the emphasis. Not on judgment of the people saying PUTO (again, they don't mean it that way, so they won't feel like they're doing anything wrong), or how heterosexuals feel offended by it. The emphasis needs to be on, "think about if you were gay and people were yelling that around you. The feeling to them could be that, 'hey, maybe I should be ashamed of being gay.'" Whether that's the intention or not, that's how they probably feel.

 

[Nick Chavez]

If you don't think that we have (or should have) a more understanding and accepting culture in the NY area than the countries where the Puto chant is most often heard (Central America, not Central Americans here in the US thanks for the misquote) then we can disagree about that.

Making sweeping generalizations about people of an entire region (various countries, including my father's native Costa Rica) and claiming you/New Yorkers, in general, have "better standards" than them is highly offensive, and can fall under the category of racist/bigoted. There are plenty of things going on in this country that would make most Central Americans shake their head in disgust as well. We, as Americans, are hardly the holders of the highest moral footing if you want to make vague, sweeping judgments like that.

Anyway, I hope you didn't meant it that way, but it can certainly be taken that way. Be careful with your words.

 

[Lasker]

No, Lasker, I said I do agree in at least 2 posts about it, I was just explaining my initial reservations lend my voice to either side of the argument.. Hell, I even put it in bold.

You are correct, I will edit my post accordingly.

 

[Ulrich]

Quite an offensive thing to say that you know for sure that you, and New York in general, "have better standards" than "Central Americans." Whether it can be argued true or not, that's just as offensive as the "puto" chant, if not more so, so watch yourself.

Also, that kind of arguably racist/bigoted talk won't get you very far with the Hispanic minds you're trying to change. If you want people to follow your rules, you better start following them yourself.

Wow, fantastic job taking his point out of context and attaching charged adjectives to it.

What is socially acceptable, right or wrong, in another country does not make it socially acceptable in this county and this city. Having a common respect for the general population/your neighbor, whether you know them or not, while holding one another to a higher level of verbal discourse IS a higher set of standards, and if you want to label that as bigoted/racist then you're missing the point completely while hijacking those terms.

 

[SoupInNYC]

With all of that said, what do you suggest I do? Serious question. I don't know that I hold as much influence over the fans as you guys think, and if I do, I rarely see much evidence of it. Let me know what you think.

Considering the great dialogue we are having here about it, perhaps using the platform you have to take this dialogue to a broader audience and inform them on the offense that this particular chant has. Inform people on the nuance of while not used in a particular manner meant to be offensive, that the use of a term derived from it is in fact offensive, as anamorican pointed out:

"If the insult is built on this homophobic foundation, then can its use be anything but homophobic, even if not directed at a gay person with the intent to attack his sexual identity?"

I think the platform you hold and the fans that you can reach can go a long ways into educating individuals on this. And I believe, considering the great points you are making, you fully understand the nuances that need to be considered in delivering such a message.

I do really appreciate your willingness for ideas on this.