Formation Speculation

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

I think you are all overestimating the need to provide defensive support for Pirlo. We have all watched this team play for the past six months and I think we all think that you need six players back at all times to deal with the inevitable turnovers. Take Jacobson, Hernandez, Wingert, Allen off the field and you will see that when we get the ball at the back we will keep it and get it to our forwards.

The spine is the most important part of the team, so you will see a spine of Pirlo, Lampard and Villa.

 

[Drainyoo]

I think you are all overestimating the need to provide defensive support for Pirlo. We have all watched this team play for the past six months and I think we all think that you need six players back at all times to deal with the inevitable turnovers. Take Jacobson, Hernandez, Wingert, Allen off the field and you will see that when we get the ball at the back we will keep it and get it to our forwards.

The spine is the most important part of the team, so you will see a spine of Pirlo, Lampard and Villa.

I agree with this. Our defense is shit, yes because the talent isn't there, but also because the midfield isn't doing their job. That's my theory. With Lampard and Pirlo on the field, there should be less pressure on the defense. Plus, we have Iraola, who isn't a damn magician, but he should also improve the D substancially.

Exciting to see how this 2.0 team performs.

 

[Gotham Gator]

I think you are all overestimating the need to provide defensive support for Pirlo. We have all watched this team play for the past six months and I think we all think that you need six players back at all times to deal with the inevitable turnovers. Take Jacobson, Hernandez, Wingert, Allen off the field and you will see that when we get the ball at the back we will keep it and get it to our forwards.

The spine is the most important part of the team, so you will see a spine of Pirlo, Lampard and Villa.

The need to provide defensive support for Pirlo isn't just due to our back 4, but is also because of descriptions elsewhere that he's required (and received) defensive support at his prior clubs. We could do what they do and provide it with the wings, but it seems more sensible to pair him with Jacobson in back.

I totally agree with you about the spine of the team. Couldn't be stronger.

 

[Seth]

I was going to say that we have some guys that Kreis knows where they are going to play on the pitch...the other guys there are too many variables. Nemec could work now...Mullins is faster, younger, right now better...but yes, Poku can play up top too..but he is a better attacking mid. Oh that's right, we have Lampard now and that seems be his spot. Maybe two attacking mids then (Poku/Lampard) flanking right behind single striker Villa...Then there's Mix...he's played defensively in his career before, is he best in the back with Pirlo or will Jacobson flourish next to the maestro and be a defensive juggernaut. Is it dumb to put Pirlo, Mix and Lampard as the 3 mids and put Poku as the CAM. Wait until we see Angelino flying around and want a Angelino/Villa/Shelton trident up top lol. We have options now and we have good players now...This is where Kreis needs to step the F up and put his big boy pants on. It's easy to not be under the microscope when you have limited talent...now it's a totally different story. He needs to be able to assess during practice what the best possible line-up works best against that upcoming opponent. Now he has to manage this team.

I have to say that I'm happy to have this problem. It's been the same thing with Man City the past few years, having enough talent to be able to field two completely different teams if you felt like it. And that's what I think the correct approach is, to pick your team for a given day based on who you're playing and how well individual players are doing. Picking one single great lineup clearly seems to be impossible, but being able to pick and choose your squad for each match seems like a good problem to have.

 

[sbrylski]

I think you are all overestimating the need to provide defensive support for Pirlo. We have all watched this team play for the past six months and I think we all think that you need six players back at all times to deal with the inevitable turnovers. Take Jacobson, Hernandez, Wingert, Allen off the field and you will see that when we get the ball at the back we will keep it and get it to our forwards.

The spine is the most important part of the team, so you will see a spine of Pirlo, Lampard and Villa.

While this may ultimately be the case, I'm not sure I agree.

Prior to our run of good play and solid defense, we had no dedicated CDM. Mix and Jacobson both creeped up the field to try to spark attacks. Here's the heatmap from the game against RSL:

You can see that Wingert and Hernandez were largely left without cover, and we lost 2-0.

The next game, against Houston, we drew 1-1. See the difference in the heatmap?

We replaced Wingert in the middle with Facey, but Jacobson also dropped down to shield the backline. I don't think our good CB play was a coincidence. Fast forward a few weeks to the 2-0 win against Toronto, just to illustrate, Jacobson remains shielding the backline and our defense is still playing well:

Following that, we had our only bad game over the last 6 weeks, the 1-3 loss to New Jersey:

There's a few things we did wrong here (look how isolated Villa was, for instance), but one of the big ones was Jacobson abandoning his defensive role. He was right up next to Mix playing around the box. Facey and Hernandez looked excellent against Giovinco and Altidore the week before, and poor against BWP and others the next week. The only thing that changed was Jacobson.

And last week against Montreal, we reverted him back to his place in front of the backline, and we looked great again despite KWS playing, winning 2-1:

Now, I don't think Jacobson is particularly good at his role, but I think it's been very important to our play so far. The least drastic change would be to keep him in the role, with Pirlo free to focus offensively despite a deeper position. There are alternatives, but I hesitate to expect Pirlo to do stuff like chase Giovinco around the field all game like Jacobson did.

EDIT: The drastic solution would involve pulling Jacobson and desperately trying to upgrade your CB spots midseason by pulling unproven players from South Africa and Columbia. Hmm...

 

[gbservis]

While this may ultimately be the case, I'm not sure I agree.

Prior to our run of good play and solid defense, we had no dedicated CDM. Mix and Jacobson both creeped up the field to try to spark attacks. Here's the heatmap from the game against RSL:

You can see that Wingert and Hernandez were largely left without cover, and we lost 2-0.

The next game, against Houston, we drew 1-1. See the difference in the heatmap?

We replaced Wingert in the middle with Facey, but Jacobson also dropped down to shield the backline. I don't think our good CB play was a coincidence. Fast forward a few weeks to the 2-0 win against Toronto, just to illustrate, Jacobson remains shielding the backline and our defense is still playing well:

Following that, we had our only bad game over the last 6 weeks, the 1-3 loss to New Jersey:

There's a few things we did wrong here (look how isolated Villa was, for instance), but one of the big ones was Jacobson abandoning his defensive role. He was right up next to Mix playing around the box. Facey and Hernandez looked excellent against Giovinco and Altidore the week before, and poor against BWP and others the next week. The only thing that changed was Jacobson.

And last week against Montreal, we reverted him back to his place in front of the backline, and we looked great again despite KWS playing, winning 2-1:

Now, I don't think Jacobson is particularly good at his role, but I think it's been very important to our play so far. The least drastic change would be to keep him in the role, with Pirlo free to focus offensively despite a deeper position. There are alternatives, but I hesitate to expect Pirlo to do stuff like chase Giovinco around the field all game like Jacobson did.

EDIT: The drastic solution would involve pulling Jacobson and desperately trying to upgrade your CB spots midseason by pulling unproven players from South Africa and Columbia. Hmm...

Nice analysis. I like the heat maps. I think one thing people forget is that Jacobson was a CM before coming to NYCFC this CDM stuff is new for him. It could explain why from time to time he looses focus and creeps too far forward.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

While this may ultimately be the case, I'm not sure I agree.

Prior to our run of good play and solid defense, we had no dedicated CDM. Mix and Jacobson both creeped up the field to try to spark attacks. Here's the heatmap from the game against RSL:

You can see that Wingert and Hernandez were largely left without cover, and we lost 2-0.

The next game, against Houston, we drew 1-1. See the difference in the heatmap?

We replaced Wingert in the middle with Facey, but Jacobson also dropped down to shield the backline. I don't think our good CB play was a coincidence. Fast forward a few weeks to the 2-0 win against Toronto, just to illustrate, Jacobson remains shielding the backline and our defense is still playing well:

Following that, we had our only bad game over the last 6 weeks, the 1-3 loss to New Jersey:

There's a few things we did wrong here (look how isolated Villa was, for instance), but one of the big ones was Jacobson abandoning his defensive role. He was right up next to Mix playing around the box. Facey and Hernandez looked excellent against Giovinco and Altidore the week before, and poor against BWP and others the next week. The only thing that changed was Jacobson.

And last week against Montreal, we reverted him back to his place in front of the backline, and we looked great again despite KWS playing, winning 2-1:

Now, I don't think Jacobson is particularly good at his role, but I think it's been very important to our play so far. The least drastic change would be to keep him in the role, with Pirlo free to focus offensively despite a deeper position. There are alternatives, but I hesitate to expect Pirlo to do stuff like chase Giovinco around the field all game like Jacobson did.

EDIT: The drastic solution would involve pulling Jacobson and desperately trying to upgrade your CB spots midseason by pulling unproven players from South Africa and Columbia. Hmm...

We will have to disagree that Montreal was a good game. I thought that was the worst we have played in a long time. My point was with better defenders and midfielders we will not need that extra defender. I really hope we dont have to debate the flavor of the turds we have been eating the past four months anymore

 

[sbrylski]

We will have to disagree that Montreal was a good game. I thought that was the worst we have played in a long time. My point was with better defenders and midfielders we will not need that extra defender. I really hope we dont have to debate the flavor of the turds we have been eating the past four months anymore

Hey I'm all for replacing Jacobson. He's an effort player at best. I used to be a 4-3-1-2 proponent without him until I got scared and switched to iterations of a 4-1-x-x. Who knows, maybe Mashamaite gets two starts by the end of the month and plays out of his mind, rendering my suggestions obsolete.

 

[NickA]

Some may be missing the point. I watch almost every Juve game and this is what I've seen. It's not about providing Pirlo support on defense, it's about him supporting the defense. He is not a defender, but he's an important piece of the defensive puzzle. He is a deep playing holding midfielder. He bridges the gap between CB and anything past midfield. Marchisio, Vidal and sometimes even Pogba play more of a defensive role. It's deceiving to the eye cause of his positioning. But his role is not a defender. Can he defend? Yes he's an above average defender. I'm trying to make sense to myself here, but maybe I got it. He makes defenders better. He elevates a defense. His positioning, vision and calmness in front of the CBs is his value. They have an outlet now, rather than a manic clear the ball and run back to defend. To have him back there alone is a waste. He probably can do it. But his job is to create, not defend. Why would anyone want to wear him out like that. Let Jacobson, Mix, Grabavoy, Poku, whoever do that. We don't need hardcore CDMs back there, just a strong formidable midfield that can control the game.

On another note..thinking about what sbrylski was saying about Kreis just throwing players out there...we have a crap load of mids and few forwards. We have the perfect roster to run a 4-5-1. You can mix players up as CAMS, CMS, CDMS. Designate players that will make runs. No team will be able to mark us in that formation. You can easily sub in a 2nd striker and go 4-4-2 at any time.

 

[Kjbert]

Some may be missing the point. I watch almost every Juve game and this is what I've seen. It's not about providing Pirlo support on defense, it's about him supporting the defense. He is not a defender, but he's an important piece of the defensive puzzle. He is a deep playing holding midfielder. He bridges the gap between CB and anything past midfield. Marchisio, Vidal and sometimes even Pogba play more of a defensive role. It's deceiving to the eye cause of his positioning. But his role is not a defender. Can he defend? Yes he's an above average defender. I'm trying to make sense to myself here, but maybe I got it. He makes defenders better. He elevates a defense. His positioning, vision and calmness in front of the CBs is his value. They have an outlet now, rather than a manic clear the ball and run back to defend. To have him back there alone is a waste. He probably can do it. But his job is to create, not defend. Why would anyone want to wear him out like that. Let Jacobson, Mix, Grabavoy, Poku, whoever do that. We don't need hardcore CDMs back there, just a strong formidable midfield that can control the game.

So maybe what you are saying is play an "8" next to him instead of a "6?"

-----------Villa----------
LM------Lampard----RM
------Pirlo-----Mix------
Back Four
Saunders

??

 

[sbrylski]

So maybe what you are saying is play an "8" next to him instead of a "6?"

-----------Villa----------
LM------Lampard----RM
------Pirlo-----Mix------
Back Four
Saunders

??

He's basically saying just run what Juve ran, which is basically a possession diamond. So he might not be wrong. Something like this:

The deeper three of Calle?/Pirlo/Mix are the "defense before the defense." They run the show - holding possession, distributing the ball forward, and breaking up counter attacks. A stout 3-man line that anchors the offense, thereby helping the defense.

 

[Kjbert]

He's basically saying just run what Juve ran, which is basically a possession diamond. So he might not be wrong. Something like this:

The deeper three of Calle?/Pirlo/Mix are the "defense before the defense." They run the show - holding possession, distributing the ball forward, and breaking up counter attacks. A stout 3-man line that anchors the offense, thereby helping the defense.

Eseentially a 4-3-3 from what I watched this year. Or a 4-3-lots of space-1-2. I remember Pogba playing very deep. I would imagine Mix plays the Pogba role.

 

[NickA]

Eseentially a 4-3-3 from what I watched this year. Or a 4-3-lots of space-1-2. I remember Pogba playing very deep. I would imagine Mix plays the Pogba role.

I think Mix and Poku can both play that Pogba role.

He's basically saying just run what Juve ran, which is basically a possession diamond.

basically yes. A possession diamond that keeps the L/R mids in a position to allow the fullbacks to attack and not leave a player all alone defending against a possible counter. Which it looks like Iraola and Angelino plan on attacking. So can't leave Pirlo or anyone for that matter back there alone. The last thing we want to do is keep a gaping hole in front of the box. Yes Pirlo related, but we are talking about formations. This is Pirlo touches vs Real Madrid. Focus on the positioning.

 

[MagnusPax]

He's basically saying just run what Juve ran, which is basically a possession diamond. So he might not be wrong. Something like this:

The deeper three of Calle?/Pirlo/Mix are the "defense before the defense." They run the show - holding possession, distributing the ball forward, and breaking up counter attacks. A stout 3-man line that anchors the offense, thereby helping the defense.

Can Poku play the slot you've earmarked for Calle? I could also see McNamara in there for Poku's CAM/CF spot. Otherwise I could see this, say early August. My only worry besides defense and can Pirlos and Lamps legs handle it, is will Tommy McN support Villa up top by his lonesome?

 

[NickA]

Can Poku play the slot you've earmarked for Calle? I could also see McNamara in there for Poku's CAM/CF spot. Otherwise I could see this, say early August. My only worry besides defense and can Pirlos and Lamps legs handle it, is will Tommy McN support Villa up top by his lonesome?

The only problem with Pirlo's legs is that he just got done playing his season, played in CL to the final and sprinkle in a few Italy games. Other than that, I have no issue whatsoever with his stamina or legs. He covers a lot of ground already. The shorter field should help too. I can't speak for Lampard, as I don't follow his game enough to comment.

I'm fine with tmac in that spot. He may not be the most gifted, but the guy hustles and gets involved. That's the kind of player Pirlo can make a better player. I guy that's willing to take chances. That's what tmac could do. I look at it like putting Peyton Manning on a team automatically makes the receivers better. So if Pirlo is QB'n this team, people like tmac, Shelton, Calle will benefit the most.

 

[BlueWarrior]

as much as i dislike the 4-4-2 without an "enforcer". Like people have said pirlo did great with two defensive minded people next to him in a 4-4-2.

I could see this happening

-----------------Villa---------------Poku-------------------
------------------------Lampard-------------------------
--------Angelino-----------------------------Mix------
--------------------------Pirlo--------------------------
Calle-------------------------------------------------Iraola
-----------Hernandez--------------------Facey-------
---------------------------Saunders----------------------

 

[joe]

as much as i dislike the 4-4-2 without an "enforcer". Like people have said pirlo did great with two defensive minded people next to him in a 4-4-2.

I could see this happening

-----------------Villa---------------Poku-------------------
------------------------Lampard-------------------------
--------Angelino-----------------------------Mix------
--------------------------Pirlo--------------------------
Calle-------------------------------------------------Iraola
-----------Hernandez--------------------Facey-------
---------------------------Saunders----------------------

Why not switch Calle and Angelino to have each in their natural positions?

 

[BlueWarrior]

Why not switch Calle and Angelino to have each in their natural positions?

Not a fan if calle at left mid. I think he did better at left back here. The jury is out on angelino, but he has played left mid at man c and has even netted quite a few goals from there.

 

[BlueWarrior]

The only problem with Pirlo's legs is that he just got done playing his season, played in CL to the final and sprinkle in a few Italy games. Other than that, I have no issue whatsoever with his stamina or legs. He covers a lot of ground already. The shorter field should help too. I can't speak for Lampard, as I don't follow his game enough to comment.

I'm fine with tmac in that spot. He may not be the most gifted, but the guy hustles and gets involved. That's the kind of player Pirlo can make a better player. I guy that's willing to take chances. That's what tmac could do. I look at it like putting Peyton Manning on a team automatically makes the receivers better. So if Pirlo is QB'n this team, people like tmac, Shelton, Calle will benefit the most.

nothing to do with ur comment but I love your avatar lol

 

[MagnusPax]

The only problem with Pirlo's legs is that he just got done playing his season, played in CL to the final and sprinkle in a few Italy games. Other than that, I have no issue whatsoever with his stamina or legs. He covers a lot of ground already. The shorter field should help too. I can't speak for Lampard, as I don't follow his game enough to comment.

I'm fine with tmac in that spot. He may not be the most gifted, but the guy hustles and gets involved. That's the kind of player Pirlo can make a better player. I guy that's willing to take chances. That's what tmac could do. I look at it like putting Peyton Manning on a team automatically makes the receivers better. So if Pirlo is QB'n this team, people like tmac, Shelton, Calle will benefit the most.

I'm warming to the idea that Pirlo is good enough to help out defense so we don't need a destroyer. But he'll still need someone like mix and Poku (maybe Grab or AJ) to run along side him. Like the attack to have Villa, Lamps & TMac.