NYCFC Academy - General Discussion

[Konrad]

The pipeline has to start somewhere, which it is with the 13/14 team, but that shouldn't be at the expense of older talented kids that want the NYCFC connection.

I agree with this fully. I think it's truly fantastic that we started our academy with a group of kids that will have gone through the academy system from start to finish. We will also have academies at every age level when these kids "graduate" from the system. With that being said, if we had a U18 team last year as a way to pick up talent, we possibly could have gotten Jake Harrison as a true homegrown player last year, saved our TAM, and still have our number four pick in the super draft. It's not a perfect situation, but for now it will help us bolster our line up until the first group of kids are ready.

 

[Aguero-kun]

I also wouldn't be terribly surprised, were there to be a kid who was a level above our existing academy offerings, if that kid was given an opportunity to play with EDS (even if there was a handshake that he was an NYCFC player). I mean, if substantially better for his age than our academy--which is in the top level of American youth programming (right?)--then theoretically shouldn't EDS be a good developmental match for him at one age group or another? I suppose EU/UK regulations might make this an issue, but as a parent I would view that as one of the principal attractions to NYCFC.

 

[Ulrich]

I also wouldn't be terribly surprised, were there to be a kid who was a level above our existing academy offerings, if that kid was given an opportunity to play with EDS (even if there was a handshake that he was an NYCFC player). I mean, if substantially better for his age than our academy--which is in the top level of American youth programming (right?)--then theoretically shouldn't EDS be a good developmental match for him at one age group or another? I suppose EU/UK regulations might make this an issue, but as a parent I would view that as one of the principal attractions to NYCFC.

Playing with EDS - not that I think that's even a remote possibility - would not be considered a route to getting a kid locked in as Homegrown, so it truly defeats the purpose as far as NYCFC is concerned.

 

[Aguero-kun]

Playing with EDS - not that I think that's even a remote possibility - would not be considered a route to getting a kid locked in as Homegrown, so it truly defeats the purpose as far as NYCFC is concerned.

A club may sign a player to his first professional contract without subjecting him to the MLS SuperDraft if the player has been a member of a club’s youth academy for at least one year and has met the necessary training and retention requirements. Players joining MLS through this mechanism are known as Homegrown Players.

Based on the above (and based on Jordan Morris' experience), looks like you only have to spend a year in the academy and that year doesn't need to be immediately prior to signing the pro contract (depending on whatever "training and retention requirements" entails). So, provided that the "promotion" to EDS only comes for kids already in the NYCFC academy for a meaningful amount of time, then seems like it would work.

(Then again, who knows with MLS rules like this--others describe them as calvinball, which sounds about right).

 

[Ulrich]

Based on the above (and based on Jordan Morris' experience), looks like you only have to spend a year in the academy and that year doesn't need to be immediately prior to signing the pro contract (depending on whatever "training and retention requirements" entails). So, provided that the "promotion" to EDS only comes for kids already in the NYCFC academy for a meaningful amount of time, then seems like it would work.

(Then again, who knows with MLS rules like this--others describe them as calvinball, which sounds about right).

It's completely different. Morris went to college after being in the academy which is not the same as going to another team's academy. MLS does not want to be viewed as the org that says don't go to college and get an education - that would be self-defeating since most Homegrown and GA players all play at least one year of college ball.

 

[Aguero-kun]

It's completely different. Morris went to college after being in the academy which is not the same as going to another team's academy. MLS does not want to be viewed as the org that says don't go to college and get an education - that would be self-defeating since most Homegrown and GA players all play at least one year of college ball.

I agree that they are different paths, and that college is not the same thing as an academy. That said, they don't appear to be distinguishable for purposes of the roster rules (which, as noted above, only require that the player have played for the academy for at least a year). And it would be a decision between the clubs, the academies, the parents and the child, rather than MLS telling a kid to go join some other team's academy. Also: I would note that on the NYCFC academy page, they link the NYCFC academy to the MCFC academy as well. So it appears that this path is something that they have contemplated as well.

Point being, any super-performing kid in a newly fledged academy is going to want to have a level-appropriate developmental path available if he is better than the options in the existing academy system. I think--and it appears that the team thinks--that the MCFC academy system is an additional pathway available to these kids. If next year we have kids eligible for a u-15 team playing at a u-18 level, I would rather have them in MCFC's u-18 setup than in our u-15 setup (it being understood that the kid is an NYCFC "asset" and that the plan is to get him signed for NYCFC). I don't know what's so controversial about that--to me, in fact, it seems like a great way to supercharge our academy/recruiting until ours is more established.

 

[BxLio91]

"farm team" blah blah blah

 

[Falastur]

I suppose EU/UK regulations might make this an issue, but as a parent I would view that as one of the principal attractions to NYCFC.

There is a UK rule that states that kids of 16 and under can only be transferred from a foreign club if the player's parents have moved to the area of the UK club for work - i.e. you can't sign a 15-year old and have his mum come and live at the academy as a live-in parent with no day job. Of course, if clubs really want to sign the player then what they do is employ the parent, but it does serve to put off the majority of the transfers which would happen if the rule weren't in place.

For 18-year olds, they count as adults and therefore work permit rules apply.

For 17-year olds, they exist in a small void. They are too old to be bound by the ruling which requires their parents to move to the area for work, but they are not legally adults. The law says that they have to be in education until the age of 18, but that's no issue really as MCFC's academy involves free schooling at a local private school. Therefore, this would be the easiest age for a player to come and join the academy.

In conclusion, however, I think the system is far too complicated for a player to be drafted into the academy in Manchester just in order to make a HGP claim or to keep them "in the family". I doubt a player would go to Manchester unless MCFC were seriously interested in signing them permanently.

 

[Konrad]

If they did go to Manchester, wouldn't they be a loanee and thus not count as a "homegrown" player (remember that homegrown players don't count nearly the same as a loanee against the cap)

 

[SlimShadyRus]

Yeah, but were you playing for a professional team? At lower levels it's common for the one outstanding player to be able to match players three or four years older than them. In a professional club's academy you expect the entire academy to be made up of those players who were standing out for their local club's teams with players much older.

Incidentally, even for professional academies it's common for players to be able to play with players two years older than them. However, three or certainly four years doesn't happen - and the thing is it's not just technical skill. I'm not sure I would want to see a 14-year old playing consistently with 18-year olds. I'm not sure that they would be able to stand up to the tackles of much older kids.

It's such a strange feelings when you understand how many people are knocked out on new levels and that very very few make it to 1st tier leagues BUT at the same time on that level we (I don't mean NYCFC but all the leagues with at least bit of competition) have players who can't properly kick the ball...

 

[FredMertz]

Wait -- playing on an academy team and a college team are not mutually exclusive. My understanding is that the academy teams play in the summer, after the college season ends.

 

[SayWhat44]

Wait -- playing on an academy team and a college team are not mutually exclusive. My understanding is that the academy teams play in the summer, after the college season ends.

They do... example Jordan Morris

 

[Ulrich]

The way NYCFC has set up their Academy so far is that a 13/14 team was chosen and is training/playing together. Each year as they move up, another team is brought in under them. Fine, I get it, the club/CFG wants the players to grow together and learn the CFG system. That makes perfect sense, except as I've mentioned before it eliminates any of the older NYC players that are part of our youth affiliates but aren't on the actual academy team; as our attempt to land Jack Harrison as a HG shows, the affiliates *may not* have the same clout as being on the actual Academy team. That said, the problem with the notion that the 13/14 team will grow together for the next 5 years is a bit idealistic. The chances of this same group *all* continuing to grow is likely not possible - which means new blood will likely join up and players are cut. If new players are selected, which will definitely happen in a city this size that has an endless influx of new residents (foreign and domestic), then they will be coming in with less time learning the CFG system than the original 13/14 group. To me, that not an issue, because the club needs the most talented players possible, but it shoots a hole in the current tautology of having them all together and currently having a team for each age level. Seriously, if NYCFC has started the Academy with all age groups represented, it would be no different than the 13/14 team picking up 1-2 new players each year, especially at the upper levels when they'll only be together for 1-2 years. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but this was just really lacking in forethought, and we're going to miss some talented NYC youth in the next few years because NYCFC doesn't have a tema for them to be a part of.

 

[Seth]

The way NYCFC has set up their Academy so far is that a 13/14 team was chosen and is training/playing together. Each year as they move up, another team is brought in under them. Fine, I get it, the club/CFG wants the players to grow together and learn the CFG system. That makes perfect sense, except as I've mentioned before it eliminates any of the older NYC players that are part of our youth affiliates but aren't on the actual academy team; as our attempt to land Jack Harrison as a HG shows, the affiliates *may not* have the same clout as being on the actual Academy team. That said, the problem with the notion that the 13/14 team will grow together for the next 5 years is a bit idealistic. The chances of this same group *all* continuing to grow is likely not possible - which means new blood will likely join up and players are cut. If new players are selected, which will definitely happen in a city this size that has an endless influx of new residents (foreign and domestic), then they will be coming in with less time learning the CFG system than the original 13/14 group. To me, that not an issue, because the club needs the most talented players possible, but it shoots a hole in the current tautology of having them all together and currently having a team for each age level. Seriously, if NYCFC has started the Academy with all age groups represented, it would be no different than the 13/14 team picking up 1-2 new players each year, especially at the upper levels when they'll only be together for 1-2 years. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but this was just really lacking in forethought, and we're going to miss some talented NYC youth in the next few years because NYCFC doesn't have a tema for them to be a part of.

It's not just that they'd have those years to play together, it's also that it'll catch the ones who are really good but not quite good enough for the pro team. You're lamenting that we don't have a team of 19-year-olds, but what are the odds of us finding 28 random kids in the city aged 19 that are one year away from the pros? I'm thinking the reason they start with younger kids is that it'll take that many years to find the really good ones, and to weed out the ones who won't be able to go all the way.

 

[Ulrich]

It's not just that they'd have those years to play together, it's also that it'll catch the ones who are really good but not quite good enough for the pro team. You're lamenting that we don't have a team of 19-year-olds, but what are the odds of us finding 28 random kids in the city aged 19 that are one year away from the pros? I'm thinking the reason they start with younger kids is that it'll take that many years to find the really good ones, and to weed out the ones who won't be able to go all the way.

It's naive to think there aren't 28 kids in the city that are college ready players - but only one needs to be talented enough to make the jump in the following four years. Most HG players make the jump after college, not at 19. The important variable is having the ability to lay claim to them and not let them enter the draft.

 

[BxLio91]

The players that are part of our affiliates as of 2013 or 14 who spend the required amount of time should count as HG right? It didn't work in BAJ's case because he wasn't at the affiliate anymore by the time we associated ourselves. Worst case scenario, they try out for the team like RJ Allen and if they make the cut we sign them. I don't see the huge drama.

Someone aware me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Seth]

It's naive to think there aren't 28 kids in the city that are college ready players - but only one needs to be talented enough to make the jump in the following four years. Most HG players make the jump after college, not at 19. The important variable is having the ability to lay claim to them and not let them enter the draft.

No, let me clarify what I'm saying. 19 was just a randomly picked age that was a few years older than the 14 year olds we're talking about, not any specific thing. And I'm also not saying there aren't any good older kids in the entire city. What I'm saying is that if we start the program with 13 and 14 year olds after a few years we'll hopefully end up with at least a few serious prospects. If we start with 19 and 20 year olds it seems to me unlikely that we'll accidentally find a group good enough to advance as far as we'd like because there's just not enough time to get the program started and make it work.

So I'm not saying it's not possible or we shouldn't do it, just that it's not really likely with older kids in such a short amount of time, and that that may be why they're starting out the program with younger kids.

 

[FootyLovin]

No, let me clarify what I'm saying. 19 was just a randomly picked age that was a few years older than the 14 year olds we're talking about, not any specific thing. And I'm also not saying there aren't any good older kids in the entire city. What I'm saying is that if we start the program with 13 and 14 year olds after a few years we'll hopefully end up with at least a few serious prospects. If we start with 19 and 20 year olds it seems to me unlikely that we'll accidentally find a group good enough to advance as far as we'd like because there's just not enough time to get the program started and make it work.

So I'm not saying it's not possible or we shouldn't do it, just that it's not really likely with older kids in such a short amount of time, and that that may be why they're starting out the program with younger kids.

I think the point is that you don't need the 19 year old team to "work." The team could utterly fail to gel. The players could learn nothing. But if you collect that team together and have them play for a year, they are HG eligible. So take the best talent you can get and throw them on a team. Maybe none of them progress in college to be pro worthy and we get nothing. But if any of them do develop, then over the next few years we have a chance at a HG. Without the 19 year old team we have nothing. And that's just the extreme end of the scale. What about the ages in between 13 and 19? There's a lot of talent that we are letting pass by. The likelihood is with the path we've chosen we won't have our first HG until at least 2023. That's a long wait for a location with as much youth talent as NYC has to offer.

 

[Konrad]

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2016/01/29/new-york-city-fcs-academy-trip-bolivia

A little write-up from the website about the Bolivia trip..a few things stuck out to me:

• David called up the team right before the match to let them know that the first team was behind them. I think that is huge and the first team should support the academy anyway it can.
• They won two, tied one, and lost two (one of the losses was to the eventual champions). Not a bad outing for kids getting out of their comfort zone traveling to a new country and region of the world.
• They visited an orphanage to hand out gifts. I think that's a great idea by the management; they should be getting these kids to realize how tough life is for other people, that football is just a game, and that they can do so much for other people just by helping out a little.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that they are also headed to Spain for a tourney

 

[Ulrich]

http://www.nycfc.com/post/2016/01/29/new-york-city-fcs-academy-trip-bolivia

A little write-up from the website about the Bolivia trip..a few things stuck out to me:

• David called up the team right before the match to let them know that the first team was behind them. I think that is huge and the first team should support the academy anyway it can.
• They won two, tied one, and lost two (one of the losses was to the eventual champions). Not a bad outing for kids getting out of their comfort zone traveling to a new country and region of the world.
• They visited an orphanage to hand out gifts. I think that's a great idea by the management; they should be getting these kids to realize how tough life is for other people, that football is just a game, and that they can do so much for other people just by helping out a little.

Bolivia is at Altitude, right? Even for kids with motors that run non-stop, that cannot have been an easy tournament to play in with less oxygen than accustomed to. I believe Colorado Springs is only 2/3 the altitude above sea level that La Paz is at.