Official Vent Thread
- Thread starter sbrylski
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See, I knew this was going to be misinterpreted as this. It's not an MLS Cup vs Supporters shield debate.
Nothing to do with a prize at the end, and that's my point.
I think that I'd rather have a fun season to watch game-in, game-out, than any sort of prize. Sure, winning something is fun, but even if we're second, third, etc, each separate game on their own is fun to go to, and I want it to be fun to go to. Especially when we win at home with entertaining games all the time.
Colorado came first in the west last season. Did you watch their games? yuck. Not fun. Sure happy they came first, but did they really enjoy going to those games? As an example.
Here's where I differ. I'm firmly in the camp which believes winning the MLS Cup is the primary goal. It's the whole purpose of being in a league in the first place: To compete against a set of teams for the same prize at the end. It's a game of King of the Hill.
(The same logic applies to tournaments, of course. But if it's an either/or between a tournament cup and a league cup, I'll take the league every day of the week, plus Sunday.)
Now, that being said, is it better to win the Cup playing fun soccer? Absolutely. Certainly, from the fan's perspective that's true, and I'd argue from the player's perspective it's true as well. It's a great feeling to be out there really cooking and running wild. Everyone wants that.
And I think we got it this season. One of the things I loved about our performance under Cushing was our tactical flexibility. Once he got out of the shadow of "continuity" and let his freak flag fly, we won ugly, we won pretty, we played elegant soccer, and we went to war in the trenches. It was all fun.
But at our best we were just a pleasure to watch.
We can agree to disagree, but I think the journey is more important than the outcome. Our goal should be winning MLS cup, yes, and it's great to try to build FOR that outcome, but I don't think what happens at that end (unless it's like a shocker or major disappointer or something) will take anything away from a really fun regular season with great games.
I think
Shwafta's goals - play attractive soccer and win games regularly - are the most ambitious goals you can set and reasonably expect a team to achieve consistently, because anything beyond that is too random. So if you get that, you've received the most you expect without accounting for the luck of multiple events falling just right. It doesn't mean you don't want or value cups, or that it's unreasonable to be disappointed if you don't. But any team that delivers that has basically done all it can in a salary capped league with playoffs. So, IMO, we as fans have a choice: (1) set expectations that are lofty, but can reasonably be met, and have a decent chance to be happy, or (2) demand results that can never be guaranteed no matter the effort, spend or brilliance of management, and set yourself up for disappointment.
Shwafta's goals - play attractive soccer and win games regularly - are the most ambitious goals you can set and reasonably expect a team to achieve consistently, because anything beyond that is too random. So if you get that, you've received the most you expect without accounting for the luck of multiple events falling just right. It doesn't mean you don't want or value cups, or that it's unreasonable to be disappointed if you don't. But any team that delivers that has basically done all it can in a salary capped league with playoffs. So, IMO, we as fans have a choice: (1) set expectations that are lofty, but can reasonably be met, and have a decent chance to be happy, or (2) demand results that can never be guaranteed no matter the effort, spend or brilliance of management, and set yourself up for disappointment.
Oh, don't get me wrong -- I'm on all fours with that last part. We had a great season. I'm beyond proud of our team and beyond proud to be a dyed in the wool Pigeon. We didn't get the ultimate prize, but it was for no lack of trying, and there were some great outcomes (the Campeones Cup, sweeping the Red Bulls) and some awesome performances even in losses (we gave Philadelphia hell in the Conference Final).
But I can't agree the journey is more important than the outcome. In the end, there's only one champion. And then there's everyone else. I don't like being with everyone else. LOL
Agreed ...
Winning MLS Cup comes down to luck - look at this year. If Chanot and Talles are healthy, we probably don't give up those goals in the 2nd half and might still be playing. Last year we won two penalty kicks to take the title. Luck. If it happens, it's incredible. If it doesn't happen, we better play fun, attractive soccer.
Playing fun, attractive soccer throughout the season isn't luck, it's a choice we make. So I understand what you're saying -- I'd rather play fun, attractive soccer because if we don't win, at least we'll have enjoyed the season. I tend to think I probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in MLS if I were a Red Bulls fan because of the ugly soccer they play. I'd much rather root for a team that plays the way NYCFC plays, no matter how the season ends.
Reasonable enough, for the most part. And if I'm not mistaken, this is only the fourth time since 2010 where a defending Cup champion even made it to the Conference Final. So, we had a great year by any measure.I think
This is the point I'm trying to make but
ZYanksRule articulated it better, I think. heh. There are a lot of teams I've watched that I just think "Yawn" and would be boring to be a fan of that team.
Again, reasonable enough. A season of watching a bunch of Bunker Boys scrap for a lucky goal is Une Saison en Enfer:
One evening I sat Beauty on my knees – And I found her bitter – And I reviled her.
I armed myself against Justice.
I fled. O sorceresses, O misery, O hatred, it was to you my treasure was entrusted!
I managed to erase all human hope from my mind. I made the wild beast’s silent leap to strangle every joy.
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By the way, that's Arthur Rimbaud, from A Season in Hell. He also wrote The Drunken Boat around the same time while galivanting around France with Paul Verlaine as a teenage libertine, then stopped writing poetry when he was just 19. He ended up a merchant in Abyssinia, running guns among other things, and died of cancer at 37 in Marseille (which would have made him an OM man in the present day LOL).
You never know what I'm going to come out with. Not bad for a blue-collar kid from Brooklyn, eh?
Or you could argue if Cups are your thing that a defensive, ugly, bunker down style removes some of the randomness created by open play & talent required to pull it of will reduce some variables and create a better shot at a cup run. And to the eye of the beholder, maybe perfectly pulling off such a system & gritting out wins could be a beautiful thing.I think
Although I occasionally do a bit of a mischievous tail-pull-and-run about how the Shield is what matters and the Cup is just a tournament for a bit of fun, what I really think is that both are important. In the EPL if you don't win the season you're done, whereas here a team can get away with coming in third, say, and still be playing. So for me it's really two different things; my main goal is to have the best season, and then hey, there's also this random tournament at the end of the season too. Bonus! I totally get that most folks would say only the cup matters, but I'm not in favor of limping into the playoffs in 7th place after a crummy season and then winning a few games in a row to get the cup. Too much cognitive dissonance for my taste: we sucked, *and* we won. I'd rather win the season, although it's not actually required, and then going for the cup as an extra.
If you're a Union fan, you might agree. They were 26th in the league in possession, 27th in completed passes, 27th in successful dribbles and 8th in shots on target. Yet they scored the most goals in the league (and were top-5 in xG).
Statistically, what were they good at? They were 2nd in tackles + interceptions. And, of course, surrendered the fewest goals in the league.
But I don't know that I'd consider their style ugly, at least not in the way I find the Red Bulls ugly. (I mean, seriously ugly. A year following that garbage really would be a season in hell.) Philadelphia just tries to limit what can go wrong and capitalize on what goes right. And it works for them in tournaments as well as over the course of an MLS season.
To be clear, I've never said only the Cup matters. Just that it should be the top priority and ultimate goal of the season. I'm immensely proud of our guys for what I think any reasonable person would call an outstanding season, even though we didn't make it all the way in league play.
In terms of what is the most fun...
- If a team is good enough to make the playoffs, then it has had a good run in the regular season - good enough to have been a lot of fun for the fans.
- A team that wins the MLS Cup will have gone on a successful run in the playoffs, and there is something about a playoff run that is particularly fun - winning game after game as the stakes keep getting higher. The experience carries over through the week in a way that wins in the regular season do not. Is that 4-game stretch better than the 34-game stretch? Maybe, but remember that any team that wins MLS Cup also got to experience #1 above, so it's not really a choice.
But RBNJ made the playoffs, and if there is one thing that both Metro and City supporters agree on wholeheartedly, it’s that RBNJ play ugly, boring football that is NOT fun to watch. RBNJ fans are beginning to vote with their feet by showing up less and less. Playing attractive football (which I’d argue City does even on its worst days) is not only more uplifting. It’s good business.
Some of us are suffocating in it. You just can't see it from your current location. But try to sit tight for another couple of days....
This exchange in another thread reminded me of something I've been meaning to rant about.
Those stacks are spewing steam, not smoke. Steam! We are supposed to be the sophisticated New Yorkers here. This means, we are all supposed to know that the stacks are modeling the stacks above the steam tunnels in NYC, which is the one thing that makes them distinctly New York.
So, why the fuck are we calling them smokestacks??? Thank god the fact that they are spewing steam is not well known outside the city, because if it were, we'd already have been ridiculed for it. It's long past time to fix this problem.
Won't somebody think of the steampunks?
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