Ottawa (NASL) to USL? UPDATE: Tampa Bay Rowdies too?

[FootyLovin]

Forgive my non-US viewings here, but please explain to me (and just because I'm genuinely interested, not a backhanded response): why is it that at each regional level they need geographic regions with a championship game at the end? If you're reducing each level to a smaller area so the travel costs are smaller why not have each "conference" just be an independent league? If it's the need for a play-off series at the end for the excitement, you can have that within the league itself rather than needing to play the champion of another conference. Or is it just about the innate "thing" Americans have for conferences?

It just seems to me that if you're going to subdivide so that at some level, whether it be D2, D3, D4, so that you don't have one single entity organising all of the different leagues in a tier, it would be far easier for each independent league to only organise one "conference" rather than, at every single tier, a league always having four conferences. It makes things simpler, and it avoids risks such as the league constantly feeling the need to rebalance because one of its conferences is too strong, or too weak, or is generally not running like the other ones are - ultimately those differences are going to appear anyway as soon as a tier is not all organised by one body, so why not just let the conferences be independent?

For the record, I can get behind the idea of conferences at the highest levels, where it's needed to reduce the travel costs at least to a degree (although the practice will always be to some extent alien to me, and I'll never be persuaded it's the optimal format for a league). But once you get down to a level where the teams are able to afford to travel to all of the stadia within the league, why have further conferences?

Good questions. Seth makes the primary point which is just the sheer geographic size of the US. Secondarily, yes, we do love our playoffs.

In the system I outlined let's call these leagues MLS/USL/D1/D2/D3 etc.

On the east coast where populations are highly concentrated you could maybe get to a place where distance doesn't matter much by the time you get to D2. But the western regions would need to get to at least D3 and maybe D4 before they were fully done with plane requirements.

The regions within each league level just reduce those requirements and associated costs.

 

[Falastur]

Just for comparison, especially for those not from the US, here's a map of minor league baseball. You can click the individual checkboxes for the various leagues to see the area they have to cover for travel purposes. The leagues are in several levels. Major League Baseball is what everyone thinks of when they say "baseball." There's also AAA, AA, A, and the rookie leagues. Most teams are affiliated with MLB teams but that's not set in stone as teams can change affiliation and even which league they're in (not through pro/rel but rather as a business thing).

Note that for size comparison, especially when considering team travel, England is roughly the same size as the state of Nevada (in the west if you're looking for it). Here's the map page:

http://www.milb.com/milb/tickets/

Do people in the Upper Mid-West just like...not "do" sports? I've noticed that there's basically no football teams in that area at virtually any level, either.

 

[FootyLovin]

Do people in the Upper Mid-West just like...not "do" sports? I've noticed that there's basically no football teams in that area at virtually any level, either.

Actually they are more obsessed than most areas of the country. They just don't have large enough population centers to justify professional sports teams. They do, however, go bonkers for their college teams which don't have the same population requirements for ongoing viability.

 

[Seth]

Do people in the Upper Mid-West just like...not "do" sports? I've noticed that there's basically no football teams in that area at virtually any level, either.

Short answer is that there's sort of no people up there. Comparatively, that is. Although note that Minnesota (population 5.5 million) will have an MLS team starting next year. Just to the west of Minnesota though the population starts to thin out. The Dakotas have less than a million people each, and Wyoming has just over half a million. The next state, Montana, three times the size of England, has just a million people in it (compared to England with 55 million).

So, short summary:

England - 55 million people, 50,000 square miles
Minnesota - 5.5 million people, 87,000 square miles
Montana - 1 million people, 147,000 square miles
New York - 20 million people, 55,000 square miles

Sources
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

 

[Falastur]

Actually they are more obsessed than most areas of the country. They just don't have large enough population centers to justify professional sports teams. They do, however, go bonkers for their college teams which don't have the same population requirements for ongoing viability.

I know that it works differently in the US and the business and sporting models just can't really be compared, but I'm amazed that they don't even support rookie league equivalent teams. Even if there were only a couple of teams in the entire state, I'd have thought that there would be enough interest to make at least those couple of teams viable. I mean, even in states with only one city >100,000 people, that's enough people to sustain a sports team surely?

 

[Falastur]

Short answer is that there's sort of no people up there. Comparatively, that is. Although note that Minnesota (population 5.5 million) will have an MLS team starting next year. Just to the west of Minnesota though the population starts to thin out. The Dakotas have less than a million people each, and Wyoming has just over half a million. The next state, Montana, three times the size of England, has just a million people in it (compared to England with 55 million).

So, short summary:

England - 55 million people, 50,000 square miles
Minnesota - 5.5 million people, 87,000 square miles
Montana - 1 million people, 147,000 square miles
New York - 20 million people, 55,000 square miles

Sources
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

Yeah, I know the rough demographics of it all - I spend a lot of time absorbing statistics like that and learning maps of foreign countries, I find taking in this kind of stuff interesting. It's just surprising to me, is all. Given that minor league sports gets barely attendances in the low thousands, it seems to me that a city the size of North or South Dakotas' largest cities each should be able to put out enough fans to make it happen.

 

[Seth]

Yeah, I know the rough demographics of it all - I spend a lot of time absorbing statistics like that and learning maps of foreign countries, I find taking in this kind of stuff interesting. It's just surprising to me, is all. Given that minor league sports gets barely attendances in the low thousands, it seems to me that a city the size of North or South Dakotas' largest cities each should be able to put out enough fans to make it happen.

Still not sure there's enough people there to warrant a team. Fargo, ND has only 115,000 people, and Sioux Falls, SD has 170,000. Compare that to someplace like Cincinnati, say, which has a metro area population of 2.1 million but no MLS team. The top 100 metro areas in the US have populations over half a million each. Contrast that to Wilmington, North Carolina, home to our beloved affiliate who's not playing next year. Population there is over 250,000 and they can't support a USL team. (Also note that Fargo's average high temperature in March is only 36°F with a low of 19°. That's pretty tough soccer weather for the first month or two of the season.)

I think it may be fundamentally different in England, at least as far as soccer/football is concerned. We have trouble supporting all 50 pro teams here, alas, but you seemingly have one in every hamlet over there.

Maybe we need a population dynamics, climate, and soccer sub forum here.

 

[Falastur]

Still not sure there's enough people there to warrant a team. Fargo, ND has only 115,000 people, and Sioux Falls, SD has 170,000. Compare that to someplace like Cincinnati, say, which has a metro area population of 2.1 million but no MLS team. The top 100 metro areas in the US have populations over half a million each. Contrast that to Wilmington, North Carolina, home to our beloved affiliate who's not playing next year. Population there is over 250,000 and they can't support a USL team. (Also note that Fargo's average high temperature in March is only 36°F with a low of 19°. That's pretty tough soccer weather for the first month or two of the season.)

I think it may be fundamentally different in England, at least as far as soccer/football is concerned. We have trouble supporting all 50 pro teams here, alas, but you seemingly have one in every hamlet over there.

Maybe we need a population dynamics, climate, and soccer sub forum here.

Yeah, but I'm talking sports in general now. I just googled "sports teams in North Dakota" and literally all I could find was the college teams and some junior ice hockey clubs. I did the same for South Dakota and found a couple of slightly higher status clubs but not much really. Surely even an established sport should be able to plant a proper adult team in at the very least Sioux Falls? How is there not a gridiron team there anywhere?

 

[NickFromAstoria]

How is there not a gridiron team there anywhere?

That actually is somewhat surprising considering how there are swaths of the country where high school (gridiron) football is practically a religion.

 

[FootyLovin]

Yeah, but I'm talking sports in general now. I just googled "sports teams in North Dakota" and literally all I could find was the college teams and some junior ice hockey clubs. I did the same for South Dakota and found a couple of slightly higher status clubs but not much really. Surely even an established sport should be able to plant a proper adult team in at the very least Sioux Falls? How is there not a gridiron team there anywhere?

I think the problem isn't that a town with 100,000 can't support a low level professional sports team. The problem is that the US is very different from UK in our sports interests. Here there is way more competition. We have 5 different sports (football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer), plus college, plus high school.

So the question becomes, can you go into Sioux Falls with a minor league team in any of the major sports and compete with all the different allegiances to pro, college and HS that already exist? The answer to this point seems to be no.

 

[Falastur]

I think the problem isn't that a town with 100,000 can't support a low level professional sports team. The problem is that the US is very different from UK in our sports interests. Here there is way more competition. We have 5 different sports (football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer), plus college, plus high school.

So the question becomes, can you go into Sioux Falls with a minor league team in any of the major sports and compete with all the different allegiances to pro, college and HS that already exist? The answer to this point seems to be no.

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Fair enough. Thanks.

And to add another point, I think most Americans would have trouble rooting for and supporting a team that isn't in the top league.

I think MLS may get a pass considering it's the top league in the US and the popularity of soccer is rising. But I bet there are many people who don't get into MLS because they know there are other leagues out there that are better

 

[danger]

Tangential but related to overall discussion of future of NASL :

https://twitter.com/x/status/803259085705637888

 

[Ulrich]

Tangential but related to overall discussion of future of NASL :

https://twitter.com/x/status/803259085705637888

Their business model has always been garbage. Can't pin hopes to a white elephant stadium while expecting/needing a fan revolt against MLS. The team's owners were delusional and their insufferable fans were even worse.

 

[Gotham Gator]

And to add another point, I think most Americans would have trouble rooting for and supporting a team that isn't in the top league.

I think MLS may get a pass considering it's the top league in the US and the popularity of soccer is rising. But I bet there are many people who don't get into MLS because they know there are other leagues out there that are better

There is a particularly unseemly foreign snobbishness to many soccer fans in the U.S.

Is there better soccer being played thousands of miles away? Yes. Is the atmosphere in your local MLS arena better, more fun, more compelling than the atmosphere on your couch at 9am? Also, yes.

The NFL plays football at a higher level than the NCAA, but that doesn't stop millions every week from streaming into their local college football stadium for the love of the pageantry, the stadium atmosphere, and the local team.

 

[Fantazma]

There is a particularly unseemly foreign snobbishness to many soccer fans in the U.S.

Is there better soccer being played thousands of miles away? Yes. Is the atmosphere in your local MLS arena better, more fun, more compelling than the atmosphere on your couch at 9am? Also, yes.

The NFL plays football at a higher level than the NCAA, but that doesn't stop millions every week from streaming into their local college football stadium for the love of the pageantry, the stadium atmosphere, and the local team.

well some love going to bars at 7 am ( or earlier depending on the time zone).

as for NCAA i feel its different....some of the NCAA football teams existed long before a NFL franchise existed so they feel more attached to it ( especially in places like alabama where there is no pro team). is it the best football ? no but that passion is there.

still, im reading too many tweets and rumors all over with the cosmos....ill wait a few more days rather than jumping to conclusions....i know NASL was in trouble but if Cosmos are in trouble as well then the whole ship will sink....i even heard some of the NASL top execs want to "merge with USL" lol no ...if anything USL will choose who the want and the rest die or go to NPSL like the silverbacks.

and no this is not all US SOCCER fault.....its not their fault that NASL cant get owners that actually have funds to pay their players and operating costs. just willing to get new owners for the sake of getting new owners.

 

[Goodfella]

well some love going to bars at 7 am ( or earlier depending on the time zone).

GIDDYUP!