USA vs. France, Friday 6/28, 3pm, FOX (Quarterfinals)

[Christopher Jee]

Our defense was really good, and I had concerns about Dunn but we got though it. Probably would have been a different story if Cascarino had started and been running at Dunn for the whole match.

I was disappointed in how effectively France was able to employ their midfield to keep us from creating very much.

Tobinho gets free for one second to receive a pass and creates our second goal. But France (and Spain) kept her more locked up for the whole match than is ideal.

Morgan is not fit and needs to rest. Maybe start Press against England.

Probably could have brought Press on for Rapinoe much earlier in the second half. Ellis seems to under-rate fresh legs.

Go on, USWNT!

Had the pleasure of watching this game live. France played really well until the final ball, very reminiscent of NYCFC before Héber arrived / we figured out how to move in the final third. I was calling for Thauvin to come off at half time because she wasn't creating any outlets for her team. Sure enough, Diani carried them from the front and Cascarino was almost as much of a problem on the right wing as Diani when she was out there.

I don't know how many people noticed it, but the second goal was all about USWNT's play acting and subs destroying the shape of the game (which France very much dominated). France fell asleep after 4 or 5 such stoppages and the US scored. It's a tough way to learn that sportsmanship is dead for France, but I hope they will learn to play through this going forward.

For the US, it's sad to me that a team that started out with such an advantage in women's soccer is now relying predominantly on individual talent, gamesmanship and defense to squeak past more expansive, technical and tactically astute sides. I'm hoping they'll be surpassed and forced to adapt soon.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Had the pleasure of watching this game live. France played really well until the final ball, very reminiscent of NYCFC before Héber arrived / we figured out how to move in the final third. I was calling for Thauvin to come off at half time because she wasn't creating any outlets for her team. Sure enough, Diani carried them from the front and Cascarino was almost as much of a problem on the right wing as Diani when she was out there.

I don't know how many people noticed it, but the second goal was all about USWNT's play acting and subs destroying the shape of the game (which France very much dominated). France fell asleep after 4 or 5 such stoppages and the US scored. It's a tough way to learn that sportsmanship is dead for France, but I hope they will learn to play through this going forward.

For the US, it's sad to me that a team that started out with such an advantage in women's soccer is now relying predominantly on individual talent, gamesmanship and defense to squeak past more expansive, technical and tactically astute sides. I'm hoping they'll be surpassed and forced to adapt soon.

I would be interested to hear a little more detail around the point in your second paragraph.

I texted a friend after the match that this seemed somewhat like when the men upset a European team - having superior athleticism but lacking practical tactical brilliance; bunkering against a team with better possession; grabbing one goal off a set piece and another off a counter and using those to carry the day. Ultimately, it was enough to win, but that’s not how the best team in the world is supposed to win.

 

[Ulrich]

Japan handball against Netherlands.

A lot of natural position handballs have been called. I'd count the CL one.

Japan handball was absolutely not a natural position. The Japanese player was closing down the play with both arms pointed straight at about a 30deg angle with plenty of space between body and arm. Just because the arm wasn’t swinging doesn’t make it a “natural position.” The mere fact the player tried to move the arm out of the way is proof positive that the player knew she was in the wrong.

Look at top club players and how they close in the box - most now clasp their hands behind their back so there’s no chance of a call. O’Hara had her arm vertical and next to her body, so not making herself bigger. Japanese player was like a bird landing with wings outstretched.

 

[mgarbowski]

I don't know how many people noticed it, but the second goal was all about USWNT's play acting and subs destroying the shape of the game (which France very much dominated). France fell asleep after 4 or 5 such stoppages and the US scored. It's a tough way to learn that sportsmanship is dead for France, but I hope they will learn to play through this going forward.

I didn't notice and I'm not exactly clear on what you're saying the US did. Is it that the US was playing at being injured to disrupt the game flow? And that it worked because it broke France's concentration? Or something else?
I had the game on at work and was probably not giving it even half attention, especially after the first half, so I'm not arguing.

 

[Christopher Jee]

Japan handball was absolutely not a natural position. The Japanese player was closing down the play with both arms pointed straight at about a 30deg angle with plenty of space between body and arm. Just because the arm wasn’t swinging doesn’t make it a “natural position.” The mere fact the player tried to move the arm out of the way is proof positive that the player knew she was in the wrong.

Look at top club players and how they close in the box - most now clasp their hands behind their back so there’s no chance of a call. O’Hara had her arm vertical and next to her body, so not making herself bigger. Japanese player was like a bird landing with wings outstretched.

I think that's where my arms would be if I was running towards someone taking a shot. Maybe that's just me. Maybe subjectivity shouldn't be written into the rules. What's natural?

But lol at the (unintended?) irony of advocating for running with hands behind back RE: "natural position"

 

[Christopher Jee]

I didn't notice and I'm not exactly clear on what you're saying the US did. Is it that the US was playing at being injured to disrupt the game flow? And that it worked because it broke France's concentration? Or something else?
I had the game on at work and was probably not giving it even half attention, especially after the first half, so I'm not arguing.

Yeah exactly. A number of times the French players seemed unsure about how to continue playing and eventually didn't (1st time) and did so reluctantly afterwards. After I think Tobin went down, they were angry. Too busy being angry to be in the correct shape. Then they just got opened up by a single ball from deep IIRC. Game (almost) over.

On phone now so haven't tested this argument at all, just based on recollection.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Nice summary of the U.S strategy and adjustments. Must read if you care about such things.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1144839843891023877

 

[Ulrich]

I think that's where my arms would be if I was running towards someone taking a shot. Maybe that's just me. Maybe subjectivity shouldn't be written into the rules. What's natural?

But lol at the (unintended?) irony of advocating for running with hands behind back RE: "natural position"

If you were running, arms would be bent and by your side not straight and making body bigger, but beside the point, the responsibility is on the defender not to defend in a way that draws unnecessary scrutiny. If rushing at full speed required arms out, then that was the tradeoff to be able to close down the space.

 

[Christopher Jee]

If you were running, arms would be bent and by your side not straight and making body bigger, but beside the point, the responsibility is on the defender not to defend in a way that draws unnecessary scrutiny. If rushing at full speed required arms out, then that was the tradeoff to be able to close down the space.

No but when you stop after running at speed your arms go backwards. Try it out. That's what happens to my arms.

Can we at least agree that we've established that this is subjective and therefore inherently flawed as a measure of advantage gained unlawfully?

 

[Ulrich]

No but when you stop after running at speed your arms go backwards. Try it out. That's what happens to my arms.

Can we at least agree that we've established that this is subjective and therefore inherently flawed as a measure of advantage gained unlawfully?

My arms don’t go backwards and I’ve been a runner my whole life, track, Xcountry, and marathons. But more importantly, the issue was not that her arms were “backwards” it’s that they were splayed to the side - there’s a huge difference to how that makes a body bigger.

And no, I won’t agree that the measure of a hand ball is flawed if the difference is ones arm straight downward to the side and the other is straight & raised to the side. That’s not subjective, rather it’s quite objective. Positioning and geometry don’t lie.

 

[Christopher Jee]

My arms don’t go backwards and I’ve been a runner my whole life, track, Xcountry, and marathons. But more importantly, the issue was not that her arms were “backwards” it’s that they were splayed to the side - there’s a huge difference to how that makes a body bigger.

And no, I won’t agree that the measure of a hand ball is flawed if the difference is ones arm straight downward to the side and the other is straight & raised to the side. That’s not subjective, rather it’s quite objective. Positioning and geometry don’t lie.

You're denying my subjectivity but it's cool

 

[Ulrich]

You're denying my subjectivity but it's cool

Did you tell your geometry teacher the same thing after a test?

 

[Christopher Jee]

Did you tell your geometry teacher the same thing after a test?

No. I never had problems with geometry, not that it's relevant.

 

[SoupInNYC]

I honestly didnt think it was a good goal at all... i thought it was really poor set piece defending from France. But a goal is a goal.

I disagree here, thought it was a beautifully drawn up set piece and a great ball from Rapinoe and great run from Ertz to make it all happen.

Drive a low bouncing ball in front of the keeper, get traffic in the way and see what happens. Ertz’s run did just that and Rapinoe put in a really dangerous ball.

 

[SoupInNYC]

France has possession and 6 shots, but I haven't felt threatened yet. Our defense just seems to lock down in the final third.

Yeah, I remember at some point in the second half, I think before France scored, they showed some stat that France had 13 shots but 1 on goal, the USA had 10 shots with 8 on goal.

That was pretty telling IMO

 

[Ulrich]

No. I never had problems with geometry, not that it's relevant.

Geometry and arm position... tough to argue what constitutes a handball if you don’t think geometry is relevant to the discussion. That’s what removes subjectivity from the equation.

 

[Christopher Jee]

Geometry and arm position... tough to argue what constitutes a handball if you don’t think geometry is relevant to the discussion. That’s what removes subjectivity from the equation.

If you want to make it about geometry then maybe. But as the rule is written it is about "naturality", which is subjective or at least intersubjective and not objective, as geometry is.

 

[Ulrich]

If you want to make it about geometry then maybe. But as the rule is written it is about "naturality", which is subjective or at least intersubjective and not objective, as geometry is.

It is geometry as the arm hinges at the shoulder creating an angle of space between the body and appendage. Making one’s self/profile larger during a match is not a natural position. It’s directed, whether intentional or subconscious, the body is in motion because when the whistle blows, nobody holds their arms out; they hang close to the side.

 

[Davo15]

Said this after spurs Liverpool and stand by it penalty should only be given for deliberate blocking of a shot with hand.

 

[Christopher Jee]

It is geometry as the arm hinges at the shoulder creating an angle of space between the body and appendage. Making one’s self/profile larger during a match is not a natural position. It’s directed, whether intentional or subconscious, the body is in motion because when the whistle blows, nobody holds their arms out; they hang close to the side.

I don't think geometry alone can describe what's natural in the absence of data about how humans move in those specific circumstances