USMNT Talk

[413Blue]

Please elaborate

Tom expects the team to play sophisticated, beautiful football, sort of like JK attempted but did not have the competence to implement in a coherent way.
Unfortunately, when you have a B-rate national team, you can't really go that route with just of couple of higher level players and a bunch of decent MLS/Tier2 Euro league players who only gather on occasion. Bruce Arena knows how to master playing in Concacaf, but his system, while more likely to succeed imo, is less sophisticated than Tom demands.
While we would all love a national team in which we can boast about it's beautiful play, we can only implement it in very narrow circumstances. It is not the ideal way to defeat the low-mid level Concacaf teams who bunker, foul and counter. It's not going to work against elite teams who are far more talented and familiar with that style. It only works against teams at or near our level, or against better teams who didn't bring their top players and have players less familiar with each other. So basically, it won't work in Concacaf qualifiers (as proven by JK's less than stellar performance in these), it won't work in meaningful Gold Cup tournaments (as proven by JK's lack of success in these), it won't work in the World Cup (as proven in 2014.) It may work, and has had moderate success in international friendlies that mean nothing, in special tournaments which our opponents have moderate interest in taking seriously (Copa Centenarrio) and not much else of any significance.
Bruce Arena had our best World Cup performance, he was dominate in Gold Cup's and qualifying, and all with what I would confidently say was a less talented player pool than JK has had access to. I wouldn't want to bring him in for a full four year cycle, but he is the perfect guy for the situation we are in right now.

 

[adam]

Talk about a move backwards. I hate this move if true.

I think Arena gives us something really special. I would consider him very successful in his past stint based on US performance versus our overall talent level compared to the rest of the world. He didn't win the WC, but that was an impossible feat at the time. We did choke in the group stage under his watch in 2006, but we also played in a very close quarterfinal match versus germany in 2002. If we win that, it's the semi-finals versus South Korea (an easier match then Germany). And then we're in the WC finals versus Brazil and Arena is a legend. I also think there's something to be said of being successful at a job, but not the best. Stepping away for a while and gathering perspective while watching others perform. Then stepping back in with all the lessons you've learned and a drive to fix all the mistakes on the first try. I think this might not have been the way we all foresaw it playing out ,but could turn into a very good thing.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Tom expects the team to play sophisticated, beautiful football, sort of like JK attempted but did not have the competence to implement in a coherent way.
Unfortunately, when you have a B-rate national team, you can't really go that route with just of couple of higher level players and a bunch of decent MLS/Tier2 Euro league players who only gather on occasion. Bruce Arena knows how to master playing in Concacaf, but his system, while more likely to succeed imo, is less sophisticated than Tom demands.
While we would all love a national team in which we can boast about it's beautiful play, we can only implement it in very narrow circumstances. It is not the ideal way to defeat the low-mid level Concacaf teams who bunker, foul and counter. It's not going to work against elite teams who are far more talented and familiar with that style. It only works against teams at or near our level, or against better teams who didn't bring their top players and have players less familiar with each other. So basically, it won't work in Concacaf qualifiers (as proven by JK's less than stellar performance in these), it won't work in meaningful Gold Cup tournaments (as proven by JK's lack of success in these), it won't work in the World Cup (as proven in 2014.) It may work, and has had moderate success in international friendlies that mean nothing, in special tournaments which our opponents have moderate interest in taking seriously (Copa Centenarrio) and not much else of any significance.
Bruce Arena had our best World Cup performance, he was dominate in Gold Cup's and qualifying, and all with what I would confidently say was a less talented player pool than JK has had access to. I wouldn't want to bring him in for a full four year cycle, but he is the perfect guy for the situation we are in right now.

All more than ten years ago, when the rest of Concacaf was worse, and wit was only US and Mexico with any chance at all. If you didn't like Klinsman today, you didn't like him 2 years ago, because he has been the same guy for six years. If you wanted to make a change, do it years ago when you could do a proper coaching search, not fall back on dinosaur Bruce.

 

[413Blue]

All more than ten years ago, when the rest of Concacaf was worse, and wit was only US and Mexico with any chance at all. If you didn't like Klinsman today, you didn't like him 2 years ago, because he has been the same guy for six years. If you wanted to make a change, do it years ago when you could do a proper coaching search, not fall back on dinosaur Bruce.

90% of fans have been calling for him to be out since at least the Gold Cup, it wasn't until recently that 99% of fans demanded his ouster that they finally made the move!
Unfortunately they did not make the change when it was clear that JK was a buffoon (although many knew that before he was even hired that it would be a disaster) but you can't go back now. At this point, it was either keep an incompetent idiot in charge, or fall back on Bruce. I'm glad they finally got their heads out of their ass and ditched the clown!

 

[FootyLovin]

If you didn't like Klinsman today, you didn't like him 2 years ago, because he has been the same guy for six years. If you wanted to make a change, do it years ago when you could do a proper coaching search

This makes logical sense IF

• All other factors are equal over that 2 year period, e.g., player sentiment toward JK. Also, you can love Marsh's success with Pink Cows in year 1 and in year 2 realize that the same approach no longer works. Marsh hasn't changed, but the way other teams understand his tactics has changed. Same with PV and playing out of the back. It's possible to like someone at one time and then dislike the exact same person at a later date.
• USSF wasn't happy with the idea of Arena as JK's successor. If you call him a "fall back" and/or a "dinosaur" then it is easy to make your point. If you call him the most successful coach in USMNT history, then it is a little more hollow.

Just saying, this all sounds a little straw man to me.

 

[FootyLovin]

it won't work in the World Cup (as proven in 2014.)

This is unduly harsh. Once again, let's reflect. Without a last minute lapse, started by Yedlin turning the ball over, against Portugal our group stage performance would have been universally heralded. As it was, we got out of the group of death that included the eventual winners, CR7's team and our nemesis Ghana. And with a last minute finish by Wondo we go through to the quarters and massively outperform expectations.

Our 2014 WC was a clear success and only feels less so because of how close we came to doing better.

Frankly, for the US, any WC where we get out of group stage is a success, for the past definitely and probably for the next 2 WCs at least.

 

[Keith Putnam]

It's official. Arena is in.

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/201...ena-named-head-coach-of-us-mens-national-team

 

[FootyLovin]

JK and BA, let's reflect.

Stat - (all time USMNT rank)*
Games - BA 130 (1), JK 98 (2)
Win % - BA 54.6 (2), JK 56.1 (1)
PPG - BA 1.86 (1), JK 1.83 (2)
GFPG - BA 1.62 (3), JK 1.81 (1) **
GAPG - BA 0.75 (1), JK 1.09 (2) ***

Bottom line: JK did hellish good work for USMNT, both in terms of results and recruiting. While his run since the 2014 WC has been poor, as I posted above, I think criticism of anything he did up to and including the 2014 WC is unfounded when considering the results.

BA also did hellish good work. Let's hope he can pick up where he left off and then some.

* Minimum 10 matches
** Bob Bradley is #2 with 1.68
*** The USMNT has had 7 coaches with at least 5 GAPG. Special mentions for the following
John Herberger - 10 GAPG, 1 match
Jimmy Mills - 9 GAPG, 1 match
John Wood - 7 GAPG, 2 matches
Bill Lloyd - 6.33 GAPG, 3 matches
Walter Giesler - 5.50 GAPG, 8 matches
I am thankful I was not around for any of those eras.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Finally, the pitchfork mob gets what it wants. Hope it works...

 

[SoupInNYC]

This is unduly harsh. Once again, let's reflect. Without a last minute lapse, started by Yedlin turning the ball over, against Portugal our group stage performance would have been universally heralded. As it was, we got out of the group of death that included the eventual winners, CR7's team and our nemesis Ghana. And with a last minute finish by Wondo we go through to the quarters and massively outperform expectations.

Our 2014 WC was a clear success and only feels less so because of how close we came to doing better.

Frankly, for the US, any WC where we get out of group stage is a success, for the past definitely and probably for the next 2 WCs at least.

Agreed. I thought our last WC under Klinnsy was a great success. But unfortunately most everything since the last Gold Cup has been atrocious (though I did think we performed decent at Copa America).

For me personally, a lot of it has to do with how I've grown with the game. Since following NYCFC, I have learned an astronomical amount about the game, its tactics, how players fit into certain formations/tactics, etc. It has become clear to me over the last year that Klinnsy is a mad man (at least over the last 1.5 years). What he did in the World Cup was fantastic, I have no clue what he is doing now.

And additionally, he lost the team. It took Bradley and JJ coming to yell at him on the sidelines during an injury timeout to switch formations. He then publicly blasted Brooks for a mistake, that he himself wasn't even sure it was his responsibility. He lost the team's confidence, and the result was a 4-0 shellacking to Costa Rica. It was time for him to go.

That said, I again, do appreciate the last World Cup. And while our youth teams have struggled recently, he has come in and challenged the academy set up and put things in motion so we will be more successful down the road. And for that, I thank him.

 

[roxfontaine]

They really hired Bruce Arena. So damned predictable.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Finally, the pitchfork mob gets what it wants. Hope it works...

Dude, that is really obnoxious and dismissive of a lot of reasonable, intelligent people, including many on this board.

 

[Gotham Gator]

They really hired Bruce Arena. So damned predictable.

They were/are not looking for the guy to guide us to new heights. They need someone who is a familiar, steady hand to get us into and through the next world cup.

The hire that gets everyone excited is coming in 2018. We are not in a position to get that guy today.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Dude, that is really obnoxious and dismissive of a lot of reasonable, intelligent people, including many on this board.

Thanks Dad

 

[NickA]

We obviously lack in talent...but, we started to lack in the fight and passion end too. We can't afford to lack in both. None of us knows if that's a personnel or coach issue...I would suggest it's a combo of both personalities.

Another thing I'd like to point out and this is 100% opinion. The current crop of players look like they lack pride of country. They don't look like they give a crap about the NT to be honest. Not all, but most.

 

[FootyLovin]

They were/are not looking for the guy to guide us to new heights. They need someone who is a familiar, steady hand to get us into and through the next world cup.

The hire that gets everyone excited is coming in 2018. We are not in a position to get that guy today.

This.

In a lot of ways Arena is a perfect hire. For him it is very low risk. If it doesn't work out, he's 67 after the next WC and probably retires either way.

For another coach it is a very short ramp up. We're looking at a 20 month hire IF we qualify for 2018. OTOH, if a new coach comes in not named Arena and we lose our next game or drop points in 2 out of the next 3, they've set themselves up for a very risky short run.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

This is unduly harsh. Once again, let's reflect. Without a last minute lapse, started by Yedlin turning the ball over, against Portugal our group stage performance would have been universally heralded. As it was, we got out of the group of death that included the eventual winners, CR7's team and our nemesis Ghana. And with a last minute finish by Wondo we go through to the quarters and massively outperform expectations.

Our 2014 WC was a clear success and only feels less so because of how close we came to doing better.

Frankly, for the US, any WC where we get out of group stage is a success, for the past definitely and probably for the next 2 WCs at least.

That was Bradley. I know his suckitude when I see it, and that's got to be on him.

But I will say that the Portugal match is a great example of why I think it's ridiculous to say we are at a massive talent deficit. We took that game to them and outplayed them the entirety of it.

All of that to say, true planning and tactics that would allow our players to flourish in a similar matter were absent most of the time.

To me, and I'm oversimplifying here, as a national team manager, you can go one of two ways:
1) Standard formation and tactical plans focused on solid defense, pool strength and players busting their ass all time/esprit de corps
2) Intricate tactical plans based on the opponent that are explicitly and rigidly communicated to players (and let's say that the team must at least not hate each other or the coach)

My thinking is that Jurgen wanted to have intricate tactical plans, but he was normally unclear in relating specific instructions to his players and/or having his players and tactics match.

You could see that against Ghana, before Jozy went down, we were definitely controlling that game and had quite a few chances created. Then it all went to shit when we didn't have a like-for-like replacement there. We were able to play Portugal mostly straight-up because Jermaine Jones turned in one of the performances of the tournament (and maybe my favorite all-time game by a USMNT player at the WCF).

Now, the other criticism to level here is that the 2014 WCF is the only time we've had much of a tactical plan. And there's a reason for that: Berti Vogts.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

We obviously lack in talent...but, we started to lack in the fight and passion end too. We can't afford to lack in both. None of us knows if that's a personnel or coach issue...I would suggest it's a combo of both personalities.

Another thing I'd like to point out and this is 100% opinion. The current crop of players look like they lack pride of country. They don't look like they give a crap about the NT to be honest. Not all, but most.

Imagine if you had to deal with Klinsmann's smarmy blame-shifting, spouting of platitudes, and continual vagaries. Would you be super-pumped to go out and bust your ass?

While not nearly the same level, I played through a mid-season coach firing in college baseball with a coach who was pretty similar. After being a shitty team, we won 12 or 15 in a row after it was announced, going from last to 2nd in the conference. There's no doubt in my mind that it's because he had no platform to spew his bullshit and drag down the team spirit. Basically, the combination of joy at knowing he was gone and him more or less giving up on coaching the team was an immediate boost. I expect the same here.

And this bush has been shaken to death, but just look at what the Bayern players say about him. They were not fans.

 

[NickA]

And this bush has been shaken to death, but just look at what the Bayern players say about him. They were not fans.

No they were not and that speaks volumes.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Imagine if you had to deal with Klinsmann's smarmy blame-shifting, spouting of platitudes, and continual vagaries. Would you be super-pumped to go out and bust your ass?

While not nearly the same level, I played through a mid-season coach firing in college baseball with a coach who was pretty similar. After being a shitty team, we won 12 or 15 in a row after it was announced, going from last to 2nd in the conference. There's no doubt in my mind that it's because he had no platform to spew his bullshit and drag down the team spirit. Basically, the combination of joy at knowing he was gone and him more or less giving up on coaching the team was an immediate boost. I expect the same here.

And this bush has been shaken to death, but just look at what the Bayern players say about him. They were not fans.

Exactly.

Passion and effort can you a lot in soccer - probably more than in any other sport. We've long been able to make up for a talent deficit by playing with great intensity. That hasn't been the case the last couple of years, and that's on the coach.