USMNT Talk

[Ulrich]

I'm not advocating the Klinnsman was the right guy for the USMNT gig, he wasn't, but where the fck are all of the mighty pundits that called for his head now because they sure as hell aren't giving Arena the same level of criticism?!?!? and this should be for the coach that consistently undermined JK by saying in the media he could do better while JK was steering the ship.

Now the US still has a better than 50/50 chance of making the WC, but the last two matches have been some of the worst performances ever by the MNT. No defensive cohesion, no attacking tactics, no midfield shape. JK was criticized for favoring European based players, but Arena has a massive lust for OmarG (a player he developed at LA) and Zuzi (an out of position & slow traffic cone); both of which were directly responsible for the goal yesterday. I'm amazed we haven't seen Zardes recently. At least when JK brought in "pet project" players (Julian Green), they scored.

If the US goes on to make the WC, I really hope we bring in a new coach, immediately after the last qualification game, to bring fresh ideas to both the roster and the tactics.

 

[sbrylski]

I'm not advocating the Klinnsman was the right guy for the USMNT gig, he wasn't, but where the fck are all of the mighty pundits that called for his head now because they sure as hell aren't giving Arena the same level of criticism?!?!? and this should be for the coach that consistently undermined JK by saying in the media he could do better while JK was steering the ship.

Now the US still has a better than 50/50 chance of making the WC, but the last two matches have been some of the worst performances ever by the MNT. No defensive cohesion, no attacking tactics, no midfield shape. JK was criticized for favoring European based players, but Arena has a massive lust for OmarG (a player he developed at LA) and Zuzi (an out of position & slow traffic cone); both of which were directly responsible for the goal yesterday. I'm amazed we haven't seen Zardes recently. At least when JK brought in "pet project" players (Julian Green), they scored.

If the US goes on to make the WC, I really hope we bring in a new coach, immediately after the last qualification game, to bring fresh ideas to both the roster and the tactics.

I thought Klinnsman was hated a little unfairly, but I didn't follow closely enough to speak up. Now that we are gearing up for the World Cup and I'm paying attention - WTF were we thinking?? We screwed ourselves.

Kreis : NYCFC :: Arena : USMNT

Arena's reputation doesn't come close to results and he built it in a previous era.

 

[Fantazma]

I'm not advocating the Klinnsman was the right guy for the USMNT gig, he wasn't, but where the fck are all of the mighty pundits that called for his head now because they sure as hell aren't giving Arena the same level of criticism?!?!? and this should be for the coach that consistently undermined JK by saying in the media he could do better while JK was steering the ship.

Now the US still has a better than 50/50 chance of making the WC, but the last two matches have been some of the worst performances ever by the MNT. No defensive cohesion, no attacking tactics, no midfield shape. JK was criticized for favoring European based players, but Arena has a massive lust for OmarG (a player he developed at LA) and Zuzi (an out of position & slow traffic cone); both of which were directly responsible for the goal yesterday. I'm amazed we haven't seen Zardes recently. At least when JK brought in "pet project" players (Julian Green), they scored.

If the US goes on to make the WC, I really hope we bring in a new coach, immediately after the last qualification game, to bring fresh ideas to both the roster and the tactics.

because Arena is the MLS homeboy...you cant criticize him then you criticize the league. and you know pundits wont....except the pro/rel keyboard warriors

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

I'm not advocating the Klinnsman was the right guy for the USMNT gig, he wasn't, but where the fck are all of the mighty pundits that called for his head now because they sure as hell aren't giving Arena the same level of criticism?!?!? and this should be for the coach that consistently undermined JK by saying in the media he could do better while JK was steering the ship.

Now the US still has a better than 50/50 chance of making the WC, but the last two matches have been some of the worst performances ever by the MNT. No defensive cohesion, no attacking tactics, no midfield shape. JK was criticized for favoring European based players, but Arena has a massive lust for OmarG (a player he developed at LA) and Zuzi (an out of position & slow traffic cone); both of which were directly responsible for the goal yesterday. I'm amazed we haven't seen Zardes recently. At least when JK brought in "pet project" players (Julian Green), they scored.

If the US goes on to make the WC, I really hope we bring in a new coach, immediately after the last qualification game, to bring fresh ideas to both the roster and the tactics.

I hate to harp on the american soccer media, but I really think it was their incessant, mindless criticism of Klinsmann, and NEVER the players that got JK fired. (whether you like JK or not, switching coaches mid-hex is dopey.)

We need a new influx of soccer writers who actually understand the game, and can see when its the players that suck vs poor coaching. The current dopes believe things like MLS is so special only american coaches can do it, and the USMNT needs to win with effort and heart, not tactics. (And Jason Kreis should coach the national team)

JK was 100% absolutely right, that bringing our national team players back to MLS was wrong, wrong, wrong for our team. Bradley completely stopped improving, and has probably regressed, when he came back to dominate MLS. When Garber won that battle, JK was done.

No surprise to many, Arena or Klinsmann, we just don't have the players. a new coach won;t fix that either, but at least Klinsmann was unearthing new talent, instead of rehashing MLS crap.

 

[Gotham Gator]

If we weren't one month out from our last two, critical games, I would support firing Arena. Heck, even if we get in, I might support firing him and letting someone else get us ready for the World Cup. The team has been poor aside from one game, and his casual attitude to the whole thing (at least in public) doesn't play well with me.

 

[Ulrich]

I thought Klinnsman was hated a little unfairly, but I didn't follow closely enough to speak up. Now that we are gearing up for the World Cup and I'm paying attention - WTF were we thinking?? We screwed ourselves.

Kreis : NYCFC :: Arena : USMNT

Arena's reputation doesn't come close to results and he built it in a previous era.

It really is too bad the pundits are all homers that can't critically analyze the situation.

Arena's success in 2002 was because he had the greatest crop of American players ever, all in their prime, and he got LD and Beasley on the rise when nobody knew what to expect from them. In 2006, he was exposed tactically because he was relying on the same players who were now too old and the only new guy he brought up was Dempsey, who by himself want enough to right the ship.

Arena's success in MLS was either due to MLS being 1.0 and he uncovered gems from the lower league for his D.C. Club, or he had the might of AEG/MLS behind him to stack his LA club.

 

[Joseph Bianco]

damn and i thought i was one of the only Bruce Arena haters in here. From the start i thought sacking JK was a terrible mistake and then when they announce Arena was coming back i almost lost my mind.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Well, I suppose maybe hating on Arena is becoming fashionable - who knows. I think his record speaks for itself, but that includes the last 6 USMNT games, which have not been so good.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Tom expects the team to play sophisticated, beautiful football, sort of like JK attempted but did not have the competence to implement in a coherent way.
Unfortunately, when you have a B-rate national team, you can't really go that route with just of couple of higher level players and a bunch of decent MLS/Tier2 Euro league players who only gather on occasion. Bruce Arena knows how to master playing in Concacaf, but his system, while more likely to succeed imo, is less sophisticated than Tom demands.
While we would all love a national team in which we can boast about it's beautiful play, we can only implement it in very narrow circumstances. It is not the ideal way to defeat the low-mid level Concacaf teams who bunker, foul and counter. It's not going to work against elite teams who are far more talented and familiar with that style. It only works against teams at or near our level, or against better teams who didn't bring their top players and have players less familiar with each other. So basically, it won't work in Concacaf qualifiers (as proven by JK's less than stellar performance in these), it won't work in meaningful Gold Cup tournaments (as proven by JK's lack of success in these), it won't work in the World Cup (as proven in 2014.) It may work, and has had moderate success in international friendlies that mean nothing, in special tournaments which our opponents have moderate interest in taking seriously (Copa Centenarrio) and not much else of any significance.
Bruce Arena had our best World Cup performance, he was dominate in Gold Cup's and qualifying, and all with what I would confidently say was a less talented player pool than JK has had access to. I wouldn't want to bring him in for a full four year cycle, but he is the perfect guy for the situation we are in right now.

I think Arena gives us something really special. I would consider him very successful in his past stint based on US performance versus our overall talent level compared to the rest of the world. He didn't win the WC, but that was an impossible feat at the time. We did choke in the group stage under his watch in 2006, but we also played in a very close quarterfinal match versus germany in 2002. If we win that, it's the semi-finals versus South Korea (an easier match then Germany). And then we're in the WC finals versus Brazil and Arena is a legend. I also think there's something to be said of being successful at a job, but not the best. Stepping away for a while and gathering perspective while watching others perform. Then stepping back in with all the lessons you've learned and a drive to fix all the mistakes on the first try. I think this might not have been the way we all foresaw it playing out ,but could turn into a very good thing.

Really there hasn't been much Arena support on here (except the above) mostly there was JK hate, which forced the change to Arena, and the proof that he was no better than Klinsmann was.

 

[SoupInNYC]

I'll go ahead and come out and say I was in support of the Arena hire and I still am ok with it at this point.

I thought absolutely JK needed to go. He was losing the locker room and made continuous baffling roster and lineup decisions that made zero sense. I thought he brought a tremendous impact to the program as a whole, and honestly still wish he was kept on as the technical director (though that will never happen).

I thought the Arena hire was the right move to make mid-cycle to get us qualified and into the WC. The latest results have not spoken to that, but I still think we are doing ok (we definitely should be doing better) and will qualify. As soon as the WC is over (barring he takes us to the semis or something), get rid of Arena and bring in the next manager. One guy I would like to see for consideration is Oscar Pareja, though I haven't given a whole ton of thought to this and who some of the other considerations should be.

tl/dr: I still think the Arena hire was the right move to make, but its not going terribly well at the moment.

 

[dannd23]

I am not giving Bruce a break but I don't think people realize how badly losing Yedlin for these two games affected the whole make up of the squad. Zusi provides NOTHING. I never want to see him in the squad again. Yedlin provides great defensive presence against speedy wingers, can go forward, overlap, and frankly he just stretches the field. Zusi being on the same side as Pulisic seriously took half the effectiveness of Pulisic away. Thankfully, Yedlin is back now.

If we make WC and we don't go 3-5-2 I will be incredibly disappointed.
CBS: Brooks, Cameron, CB3
Wingbacks: Yedlin, Johnson
CMS: Pulisic, Bradley, CDM (Acosta, maybe)
Forwards: Wood, Altidore

 

[Keith Putnam]

We need a new influx of soccer writers who actually understand the game

This is going to be tough, what with every paying media outlet cutting soccer writing staff (except MLS itself, but you can imagine what the limits might be as an MLS staff writer).

 

[mgarbowski]

I liked JK and wanted him to succeed. Ideally we should have replaced him after WC 2014 and put him in charge of US youth development -- assuming he had any interest. I would love to start building from the bottom and achieve even 1/3 of the output Germany is getting, plus national team coaches seem to have trouble in second cycles. I was not unhappy with his firing when it happened because the team seemed to be in chaos and, deservedly or not, I thought he lost the players, and he had no apparent plan.
Replacing him with Bruce made sense only in that we needed someone available with instant credibility, and guys like that are few and rarely sitting around waiting for a call. But I am very much in favor of replacing Arena when the Hex ends, whether we get in or not. But if we get in we probably won't.
I drove into work this morning so I can drive to the game tonight, and listened to the Grumpy Pundits soccer show on Sirius. I don't know them well enough to know who was saying what, and whether they were regulars or guests, but at least a couple were saying the obvious things that have a consensus here: we're relying too much on players past their primes from prior cycles and blew the opportunity to blood new players in less important games. One voice said he wants to see Sean Johnson in the next 2 Hex games even though SJ hasn't played because he has no faith in Howard or Guzan and SJ is in such fantastic form you need to take a chance and trust him (and it was ridiculous he never played in the Gold Cup). Forum punching bags like Zusi and pretty much every back line player and others also took heat. Basically we should have chosen a new mostly younger Back Four 1.5 years ago (with maybe 2 regular alternates) and played them together every game so we would have some stability. Now we're mostly screwed even if we get in.

 

[sbrylski]

JK was 100% absolutely right, that bringing our national team players back to MLS was wrong, wrong, wrong for our team. Bradley completely stopped improving, and has probably regressed, when he came back to dominate MLS. When Garber won that battle, JK was done.

This is true. I was on the fence about the whole thing the last few years. A better MLS is good for the team long term, I thought, even if it hurt a couple of players in the short term.

But does bringing a guy like Bedoya to the Union really move the needle at all? Aron Jóhannsson is next. Does MLS really need these guys? Seems tough to make the case for it these days.

All players, regardless of their country of origin, should push to play at the highest level possible. If that means the best Americans leaving America, so be it. MLS will be just fine and will continue to grow, as we continue to take the best players from other countries. Tim Howard, Clint Dempsey, and Jermaine Jones playing here is fine. Bedoya, Bradley, Altidore, Morris, etc. is not fine.

Maybe it still will be good in the long run, to sacrifice 2018 and probably 2022 for a small boost in the growth of the domestic game. But not if it costs us a World Cup appearance, which has consistently been the best way to capture a bunch of new fans every four years.

 

[Ulrich]

Basically we should have chosen a new mostly younger Back Four 1.5 years ago (with maybe 2 regular alternates) and played them together every game so we would have some stability. Now we're mostly screwed even if we get in.

you mean like this suggestion: http://nycfcforums.com/index.php?posts/191771/

 

[LeeNYCFC]

All players, regardless of their country of origin, should push to play at the highest level possible. If that means the best Americans leaving America, so be it. MLS will be just fine and will continue to grow, as we continue to take the best players from other countries.

I can understand players having reasons to want to play closer to home and I don't begrudge anyone who does. And it's not like Mexico or Costa Rica have so many more players in top leagues than we do.

One point I thought was valid mentioned during the broadcast was that MLS was intended to raise our game, but has probably done relatively more for the rest of CONCACAF except Mexico than it has for us.

 

[QuigrNYCFC]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Peter Vermes get a shot at the national team. I can't see a Vermes coached team coming out flat or lacking a fighting spirit etc.

 

[adam]

I am not giving Bruce a break but I don't think people realize how badly losing Yedlin for these two games affected the whole make up of the squad. Zusi provides NOTHING. I never want to see him in the squad again. Yedlin provides great defensive presence against speedy wingers, can go forward, overlap, and frankly he just stretches the field. Zusi being on the same side as Pulisic seriously took half the effectiveness of Pulisic away. Thankfully, Yedlin is back now.

If we make WC and we don't go 3-5-2 I will be incredibly disappointed.
CBS: Brooks, Cameron, CB3
Wingbacks: Yedlin, Johnson
CMS: Pulisic, Bradley, CDM (Acosta, maybe)
Forwards: Wood, Altidore

This is exactly what I've been thinking. There's still no keeper I'm comfortable with, but till we have our full backline (which means Brooks & Yedlin), Bruce is hamstrung. Let's see how the US plays when they get healthy, if they still suck; we're screwed. But we're also in a bad cycle where I don't think we can really compete and should just play as many kids as we can so they get experience, maybe catch lightning in a bottle with some young legs who have tons of speed and tenacity.

 

[Gotham Gator]

I liked JK and wanted him to succeed. Ideally we should have replaced him after WC 2014 and put him in charge of US youth development -- assuming he had any interest. I would love to start building from the bottom and achieve even 1/3 of the output Germany is getting, plus national team coaches seem to have trouble in second cycles. I was not unhappy with his firing when it happened because the team seemed to be in chaos and, deservedly or not, I thought he lost the players, and he had no apparent plan.
Replacing him with Bruce made sense only in that we needed someone available with instant credibility, and guys like that are few and rarely sitting around waiting for a call. But I am very much in favor of replacing Arena when the Hex ends, whether we get in or not. But if we get in we probably won't.
I drove into work this morning so I can drive to the game tonight, and listened to the Grumpy Pundits soccer show on Sirius. I don't know them well enough to know who was saying what, and whether they were regulars or guests, but at least a couple were saying the obvious things that have a consensus here: we're relying too much on players past their primes from prior cycles and blew the opportunity to blood new players in less important games. One voice said he wants to see Sean Johnson in the next 2 Hex games even though SJ hasn't played because he has no faith in Howard or Guzan and SJ is in such fantastic form you need to take a chance and trust him (and it was ridiculous he never played in the Gold Cup). Forum punching bags like Zusi and pretty much every back line player and others also took heat. Basically we should have chosen a new mostly younger Back Four 1.5 years ago (with maybe 2 regular alternates) and played them together every game so we would have some stability. Now we're mostly screwed even if we get in.

This is interesting, particularly the notion that we haven't done enough to develop our younger players. I think there is truth here - particularly in goal, at center back, and in defensive midfield. Klinsmann seemed to have an eye for this early on with guys like Morris and Yedlin getting early time, not to mention less fruitful endeavors like Julian Green. Our last World Cup squad had quite a few guys in this category, and it served us well. But, in the last couple of years, there have been fewer new faces, other than Pulisic, and I don't think any manager gets points for running him out. Where were the young center backs? Could we have given Acosta more time earlier? Where are Hyndman, Zelalem, Gooch? Why haven't any young goalkeepers seen time in friendlies? Maybe the answer is that the generation that should be breaking into the lineup just isn't quite working out. But it does seem like we stopped pushing those guys a couple years ago. Both Klinsmann and Arena deserve criticism in this regard.

 

[Ulrich]

This is interesting, particularly the notion that we haven't done enough to develop our younger players. I think there is truth here - particularly in goal, at center back, and in defensive midfield. Klinsmann seemed to have an eye for this early on with guys like Morris and Yedlin getting early time, not to mention less fruitful endeavors like Julian Green. Our last World Cup squad had quite a few guys in this category, and it served us well. But, in the last couple of years, there have been fewer new faces, other than Pulisic, and I don't think any manager gets points for running him out. Where were the young center backs? Could we have given Acosta more time earlier? Where are Hyndman, Zelalem, Gooch? Why haven't any young goalkeepers seen time in friendlies? Maybe the answer is that the generation that should be breaking into the lineup just isn't quite working out. But it does seem like we stopped pushing those guys a couple years ago. Both Klinsmann and Arena deserve criticism in this regard.

Klinnsman stopped pushing them out when it became apparent that results mattered more to the pundits than development, and if he didn't get results he'd be fired and if he was fired he wouldn't have an opportunity to blood new players afterwards.

As I've mentioned previously, JK completely revamped the German lineup after he took over and let them cut their teeth as a unit for two years. That is exactly what the US should have done to integrate the u23 and U20WC guys along with Pulisic and (now Sargent). Shit, Sargent would bring more creativity to our attack that some of the current guys and should get a look now as a sub for the last two games - we have no real creative forwards that can be counted on.