2019 Roster Discussion

[roxfontaine]

Yes, it was not what Atlanta spent on Barco or Almiron, but a $4m transfer fee for DP#3 I would not consider as cheap.

Not cheap for MLS but probably just right in the world. As YDP's go, only 2 were better than Medina by production; Kaku and Diego Rossi. He was ranked 8th in 22 under 22. Ahead of him: Reggie Cannon, Barco, Jefferson Savarino, Yangel Herrera, Diego Rossi, Tyler Adams and Alphonso Davies. 3 of those players are gone now.

This is the season for Medina to really excel. He should have the tools and the space (with Villa gone) to do it. Let's see what happens...

 

[SoupInNYC]

Not cheap for MLS but probably just right in the world. As YDP's go, only 2 were better than Medina by production; Kaku and Diego Rossi. He was ranked 8th in 22 under 22. Ahead of him: Reggie Cannon, Barco, Jefferson Savarino, Yangel Herrera, Diego Rossi, Tyler Adams and Alphonso Davies. 3 of those players are gone now.

This is the season for Medina to really excel. He should have the tools and the space (with Villa gone) to do it. Let's see what happens...

I know you're pulling this from MLS' website, so this really isn't directed towards you at all, but I'm really not sure why Barco was ranked ahead of him in that.

 

[roxfontaine]

I know you're pulling this from MLS' website, so this really isn't directed towards you at all, but I'm really not sure why Barco was ranked ahead of him in that.

My guess is because he's younger and won with a big club in Argentina.

 

[dummyrun]

I know you're pulling this from MLS' website, so this really isn't directed towards you at all, but I'm really not sure why Barco was ranked ahead of him in that.

Barco's actually similar to Medina in that unrealistic expectations and a disruption (albeit of a, uh, different kind than Medina's injury) to his season kept fans from appreciating that he played pretty well.

 

[FootyLovin]

Your overall point is fair, but I don't think it makes sense to measure the fee assuming he was DP #3. When signing a new player, you don't aim to make him your third best at that slot. To be fair it would be hard to supplant Villa, but still, you don't aim for third best either.

I don't think I agree with your phrasing. Teams absolutely aim to make certain signings a 2nd or 3rd best signing. When signing Tinnerholm, the team wanted him to be a starter, but hardly was trying to sign the newest best player on the team. Some players are expected to be at the top of the pecking order, others lower down.

I suspect Medina was signed with the belief that in year 1 he would almost certainly be 2nd and likely 3rd among the team's DPs.

BTW, for comparison sake, here are the minutes/G+A for our front 6 players last year. This doesn't especially help the case for Medina. But I also don't think it hurts it much, especially when including the Maxi 2017 number.

74 Lewis
101 Villa
137 ITS
154 Maxi
208 Maxi (2017)
210 Medina
228 Berget
409 Wallace
497 Castellanos
516 Matarrita
663 Herrera
1439 Ring
1922 Ofori
Infinity TMac
Infinity Amagat
Infinity Awuah

 

[FredMertz]

If the Home Opener TIFO is not "One Ring to Rule Them All", I am calling for a boycott

Or something involving the word, “PRECIOUSSSSS...”

 

[Shwafta]

Or something involving the word, “PRECIOUSSSSS...”

we can make a whole SLEW of NYCFC LORD OF THE RINGS songs!

 

[FredMertz]

we can make a whole SLEW of NYCFC LORD OF THE RINGS songs!

“One does not simply walk into Mercedes-Benz stadium...”

 

[gbservis]

I don't think I agree with your phrasing. Teams absolutely aim to make certain signings a 2nd or 3rd best signing. When signing Tinnerholm, the team wanted him to be a starter, but hardly was trying to sign the newest best player on the team. Some players are expected to be at the top of the pecking order, others lower down.

I suspect Medina was signed with the belief that in year 1 he would almost certainly be 2nd and likely 3rd among the team's DPs.

BTW, for comparison sake, here are the minutes/G+A for our front 6 players last year. This doesn't especially help the case for Medina. But I also don't think it hurts it much, especially when including the Maxi 2017 number.

74 Lewis
101 Villa
137 ITS
154 Maxi
208 Maxi (2017)
210 Medina
228 Berget
409 Wallace
497 Castellanos
516 Matarrita
663 Herrera
1439 Ring
1922 Ofori
Infinity TMac
Infinity Amagat
Infinity Awuah

For arguments sake say we accept the premise that Medina was signed to be our 3rd best DP, which is still disappointing to me because it shows a lack of ambition during a very important time in the history of the club with our window closing to make a deep playoff run with Villa. I think reasonable expectations for the club would have been for them to target a player better than Maxi and as close to Villa as possible given the situation.

But going with the premise that Medina should be evaluated as a DP3 and given the structure of the DP slots as the only the slots where we can spend anything we want is it not reasonable to say the success criteria for DP3 should be 3rd best player on the team? I'd say the the fact that Medina was on the bench when healthy multiple times with non-DP players starting ahead of him makes a strong case for him to be considered a disappointment or at least a player that contributed far below appropriate expectations given the special roster spot he occupies.

 

[ZYanksRule]

For arguments sake say we accept the premise that Medina was signed to be our 3rd best DP, which is still disappointing to me because it shows a lack of ambition during a very important time in the history of the club with our window closing to make a deep playoff run with Villa. I think reasonable expectations for the club would have been for them to target a player better than Maxi and as close to Villa as possible given the situation.

But going with the premise that Medina should be evaluated as a DP3 and given the structure of the DP slots as the only the slots where we can spend anything we want is it not reasonable to say the success criteria for DP3 should be 3rd best player on the team? I'd say the the fact that Medina was on the bench when healthy multiple times with non-DP players starting ahead of him makes a strong case for him to be considered a disappointment or at least a player that contributed far below appropriate expectations given the special roster spot he occupies.

While also acknowledging that this was his first year in the US and with NYCFC, and that as such a young player we probably should have expected he might struggle a bit. Maybe we had loftier expectations for him than what was realistic.

I'd like to wait and see what he produces this season before calling him a disappointment.

 

[gbservis]

While also acknowledging that this was his first year in the US and with NYCFC, and that as such a young player we probably should have expected he might struggle a bit. Maybe we had loftier expectations for him than what was realistic.

I'd like to wait and see what he produces this season before calling him a disappointment.

I agree at this point he deserves the wait and see approach he's our guy now unless we get a surprise transfer which seems doubtful. To be clear my problem is not with him it's with the FO. Given the circumstances it wasn't the time to gamble on someone so young and completely unproven. I think they still could have gone the young DP route for cap reasons but they could have gotten a player from a higher tier league that had proven themself a bit more even if it meant going after someone with a slightly lower upside.

 

[Ulrich]

I don't think I agree with your phrasing. Teams absolutely aim to make certain signings a 2nd or 3rd best signing. When signing Tinnerholm, the team wanted him to be a starter, but hardly was trying to sign the newest best player on the team. Some players are expected to be at the top of the pecking order, others lower down.

I suspect Medina was signed with the belief that in year 1 he would almost certainly be 2nd and likely 3rd among the team's DPs.

BTW, for comparison sake, here are the minutes/G+A for our front 6 players last year. This doesn't especially help the case for Medina. But I also don't think it hurts it much, especially when including the Maxi 2017 number.

74 Lewis
101 Villa
137 ITS
154 Maxi
208 Maxi (2017)
210 Medina
228 Berget
409 Wallace
497 Castellanos
516 Matarrita
663 Herrera
1439 Ring
1922 Ofori
Infinity TMac
Infinity Amagat
Infinity Awuah

Our offense was crap the end of last season and it would have been fantastic to have a player on the team able to log a G/A in less than 90 min of game time. Too bad we couldn’t identify a candidate.

 

[FootyLovin]

For arguments sake say we accept the premise that Medina was signed to be our 3rd best DP, which is still disappointing to me because it shows a lack of ambition during a very important time in the history of the club with our window closing to make a deep playoff run with Villa. I think reasonable expectations for the club would have been for them to target a player better than Maxi and as close to Villa as possible given the situation.

But going with the premise that Medina should be evaluated as a DP3 and given the structure of the DP slots as the only the slots where we can spend anything we want is it not reasonable to say the success criteria for DP3 should be 3rd best player on the team? I'd say the the fact that Medina was on the bench when healthy multiple times with non-DP players starting ahead of him makes a strong case for him to be considered a disappointment or at least a player that contributed far below appropriate expectations given the special roster spot he occupies.

It's a reasonable argument. Though the fact that he got benched is as much an argument for ITS performing way over expectations. That happens sometimes. Star player gets injured. Fill in player rocks the Casbah. Star player struggles to re-take his spot.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Two things are discouraging about Medina, and it’s not at all indicative he’s a bad player.

1) the obvious opportunity cost argument

2) he was worse later on than he was early
2-b) his flaws were obvious even in the YouTube clips, and those didn’t improve later in the season.

I think he has some talent. But he’s behind basically every other attacker on the roster for me, as he doesn’t look the part as a starter and he doesn’t create nearly as well off the bench as other options.

He does have good vision. He’s likely to be better than Jack Harrison, eventually. But he’s not nearly as exciting as Rossi or Almiron. And from a skills and talent perspective for his age, I’d trade two Medinas for one Barco.

 

[FootyLovin]

Two things are discouraging about Medina, and it’s not st all indicative he’s a bad player.

1) the obvious opportunity cost argument

2) he was worse later on than he was early
2-b) his flaws were obvious even in the YouTube clips, and those didn’t improve later in the season.

I think he has some talent. But he’s behind basically every other attacker on the roster for me, as he doesn’t look the part as a starter and he doesn’t create nearly as well off the bench as other options.

He does have good vision. He’s likely to be better than Jack Harrison, eventually. But he’s not nearly as exciting as Rossi or Almiron. And from a skills and talent perspective for his age, I’d trade two Medinas for one Barco.

I think this is a good breakdown. Also, arguably, I think the biggest issue is I just don't see how he breaks into the starting XI right now, at least not in a position that actually suits his strongest skill which probably is his vision.

For the first two preseason games Dome has had him and Taty platooning in the striker role with Taty playing with the "starters." Maybe that's a false indicator. Parks also came off the bench, as did ITS yesterday. So this might just be mixing the squads. But I certainly don't see space on the wings for Medina with Mitri, Lewis and ITS competing for those two spots.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

I think this is a good breakdown. Also, arguably, I think the biggest issue is I just don't see how he breaks into the starting XI right now, at least not in a position that actually suits his strongest skill which probably is his vision.

For the first two preseason games Dome has had him and Taty platooning in the striker role with Taty playing with the "starters." Maybe that's a false indicator. Parks also came off the bench, as did ITS yesterday. So this might just be mixing the squads. But I certainly don't see space on the wings for Medina with Mitri, Lewis and ITS competing for those two spots.

And based on what I’ve seen of both, Keaton can match him and better him with delivery at the 8. And that is before we even discuss the physical presence and ability to turn around. While Keaton is not what I’d call a real stopper in midfield, he’s going to give us more than Medina would in a similar position.

ETA: Keaton.

 

[ManhattanValley]

So the team letting slip some of the new jersey numbers allows me to indulge in my favorite kind of wild preseason speculation:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1093850398014824448

* Mitrita is taking 28, apparently because he has some kind of connection with it. But in doing so he turned down the chance to take #7 or #9. I'm sure he was always going to take 28, but I can't help but wonder if we're keeping our options open to retire #9 for Jo Inge Berget.

* Keaton Parks takes 55, again because that's what he's worn before. Fun!

* Tony Rocha takes 15, because James Sands already has his preferred 16.

* Barraza and Haak taking 72 and 80 suggests they're not exactly on the cusp of the matchday 18 at the moment

* Juan Pablo Torres takes #14, to which I say ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯ (I'm sure he turns out to be the next Johan Cruyff)

* Everyone from last season kept the same number. Again, that's despite some prime real estate becoming available in the first XI. Personally would have loved to see Lewis ask for #7...you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, kid

* I'll say this every year until it changes, but it is a season-ruining DISGRACE that our starting RB wears #3 while our LB wears #2. I'm a purist.

 

[dummyrun]

Two things are discouraging about Medina, and it’s not at all indicative he’s a bad player.

1) the obvious opportunity cost argument

2) he was worse later on than he was early
2-b) his flaws were obvious even in the YouTube clips, and those didn’t improve later in the season.

I think he has some talent. But he’s behind basically every other attacker on the roster for me, as he doesn’t look the part as a starter and he doesn’t create nearly as well off the bench as other options.

He does have good vision. He’s likely to be better than Jack Harrison, eventually. But he’s not nearly as exciting as Rossi or Almiron. And from a skills and talent perspective for his age, I’d trade two Medinas for one Barco.

This is the most measured, weighing-both-sides post I've ever seen from Midas. I'm frightened and confused.

Agree with everything except for 2)—Medina's best stretch by far came in July, which qualifies as "later" considering he was injured and recovering for most of the rest. But the follow up about Keaton is right and complicates the question of where Medina's going to play this year.

 

[Ulrich]

This is the most measured, weighing-both-sides post I've ever seen from Midas. I'm frightened and confused.

Agree with everything except for 2)—Medina's best stretch by far came in July, which qualifies as "later" considering he was injured and recovering for most of the rest. But the follow up about Keaton is right and complicates the question of where Medina's going to play this year.

Nah, sorry, *later* would be the last three regular season matches of the year that he played and and the three postseason matches, the first of which he was benched for poor form, the second he only managed 13 minutes again for poor form, and the third where he was borderline invisible. He had zero impact on any of those matches. Also disagree with your assessment that he was "recovering" when he came back from injury - coaches don't play injured players who aren't fit, that's why they have fitness tests before every match, and Medina went 85 & 90 minutes in the last two regular season games, so he was definitely not recovering.

Medina's best scoring stretch came in the beginning of the season when he was an unknown enigma taking advantage of clubs focusing on Villa, and the middle when Villa was injured and he was the centerpiece of the offense - and yet, the club suffered two losses & a draw during that short middle stretch.

 

[sbrylski]

IDK about all this Medina analysis. Everyone got worse as the season went on last year. Ring, Tinnerholm, ITS... Are those red flags too? And the other line of thought here is that his goals came at less meaningful times, or because of some external factor? Plenty of players on our team *didn't* score when the opposing defense was focusing on Villa.