2023 Roster and Transfer Discussion Thread

[gbservis]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but looking at the MLSPA numbers today got me depressed. Cufre, Magno, and Pellegrini are making way too much to have such little impact this year. Brutal stuff.

Over $750k for Cufre and he couldn't keep his starting spot I don't see how people continue to support Lee. Even putting aside how poorly it turned out why would you spend almost 7% of your non-DP salary budget (~$11M) on a left back?

It also doesn't help that "We're here to win titles" CFG has totally cheaped out on our roster. Our total DP spend of $2.1M is the 7th lowest in the league. The graphic from the Atheltic tells you all you need to know about the current lack of investment in our roster compared to other teams in the league:

 

[ZYanksRule]

Over $750k for Cufre and he couldn't keep his starting spot I don't see how people continue to support Lee. Even putting aside how poorly it turned out why would you spend almost 7% of your non-DP salary budget (~$11M) on a left back?

It also doesn't help that "We're here to win titles" CFG has totally cheaped out on our roster. Our total DP spend of $2.1M is the 7th lowest in the league. The graphic from the Atheltic tells you all you need to know about the current lack of investment in our roster compared to other teams in the league:

View attachment 13050

Sure, but look at all the teams near the top of that list. How many are making the playoffs this year?

Of the teams with the top 5 salaries in MLS, four of them are missing the playoffs. Spending money guarantees nothing in MLS. I actually think our roster-building strategy is generally sound, we just didn't put a competitive roster on the field for the first 24 games of the year.

 

[moogoo]

Over $750k for Cufre and he couldn't keep his starting spot I don't see how people continue to support Lee. Even putting aside how poorly it turned out why would you spend almost 7% of your non-DP salary budget (~$11M) on a left back?

It also doesn't help that "We're here to win titles" CFG has totally cheaped out on our roster. Our total DP spend of $2.1M is the 7th lowest in the league. The graphic from the Atheltic tells you all you need to know about the current lack of investment in our roster compared to other teams in the league:

View attachment 13050

they thought cufre would be better. or maybe lee brought him in as a CFG target/mandate and Cushing didn't really want him? we'll never know. even assuming cushing wanted cufre, spending money on him doesn't guarantee he'd work out. signing a player doesn't guarantee they'll perform. of course, the mroe expensive the player, the more you'd expect them to work out and perform, but there are never any guarantees.

not bringing in a starting caliber #9 to replace taty is the biggest mistake the club made for 2023. something they should have taken care of in 2022.

 

[Gotham Gator]

We are high spenders on GAM, which is where you want to be.

Regarding DPs, most of our spending there is on transfer fees rather than salary. Transfer fees don’t show up in the MLSPA numbers, but they still mean money out the door.

 

[gbservis]

We are high spenders on GAM, which is where you want to be.

Regarding DPs, most of our spending there is on transfer fees rather than salary. Transfer fees don’t show up in the MLSPA numbers, but they still mean money out the door.

Are we really spending that much on DP transfer fees though?

Villa - Free
Lampard - Free
Pirlo - Free
Medina - $4M
Maxi - Fee was never reported transfer market has his value at the time as $3M I would guess we paid less as he was not playing for Leon at the time.
Mitriță - $8.5M
Martins - $4M
Magno - $8M
Santi - Transfer need not reported value at the time was estimated to be $3.5M-$5M

So in the history of the club even going off the most generous estimates for Santi and Maxi, CFG has spent a total of ~$32M on DP Transfer fees. That averages out to ~$4M per year. Adding $4M to our current annual DP total salaries of $2.1M to get us to $6.1M brings us up to the middle of the list in DP salary spend and we aren't even accounting for the fact that other teams in the league also paid transfer fees for their DPs.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Are we really spending that much on DP transfer fees though?

Villa - Free
Lampard - Free
Pirlo - Free
Medina - $4M
Maxi - Fee was never reported transfer market has his value at the time as $3M I would guess we paid less as he was not playing for Leon at the time.
Mitriță - $8.5M
Martins - $4M
Magno - $8M
Santi - Transfer need not reported value at the time was estimated to be $3.5M-$5M

So in the history of the club even going off the most generous estimates for Santi and Maxi, CFG has spent a total of ~$32M on DP Transfer fees. That averages out to ~$4M per year. Adding $4M to our current annual DP total salaries of $2.1M to get us to $6.1M brings us up to the middle of the list in DP salary spend and we aren't even accounting for the fact that other teams in the league also paid transfer fees for their DPs.

I'm certain Gotham Gator was specifically talking about this current roster since that is what the salary data released is concerning and not how much the club has spent on transfer fees for DPs going back to the club's inception

 

[moogoo]

Are we really spending that much on DP transfer fees though?

Villa - Free
Lampard - Free
Pirlo - Free
Medina - $4M
Maxi - Fee was never reported transfer market has his value at the time as $3M I would guess we paid less as he was not playing for Leon at the time.
Mitriță - $8.5M
Martins - $4M
Magno - $8M
Santi - Transfer need not reported value at the time was estimated to be $3.5M-$5M

So in the history of the club even going off the most generous estimates for Santi and Maxi, CFG has spent a total of ~$32M on DP Transfer fees. That averages out to ~$4M per year. Adding $4M to our current annual DP total salaries of $2.1M to get us to $6.1M brings us up to the middle of the list in DP salary spend and we aren't even accounting for the fact that other teams in the league also paid transfer fees for their DPs.

thing is - if the club spent $0 on transfers for DPs and paid them lower end of the scale for MLS, but they were super performers and outperformed other DPs in the league because the club chose the right players to sign for our team, would there be a problem? in our history we've been luckier than most with our DP signings, I think. In general, they've been decent to great performers. Magno and Santi both had an off season but I'd be willing to argue their underperformance was not entirely their fault. Magno being played out of his best position, for example.

It's easy to point to the money when we've had a bad season and say we didn't spend. I think we can all agree the spending didn't happen where it mattered most - a #9 in 2022 so we could have prevented a season like 2023. But it didn't and that's where the club dropped the ball the hardest.

For me, it's not about how much the club spends, but whether they sign players and when they do, they are the right fit for us.

 

[ZYanksRule]

thing is - if the club spent $0 on transfers for DPs and paid them lower end of the scale for MLS, but they were super performers and outperformed other DPs in the league because the club chose the right players to sign for our team, would there be a problem? in our history we've been luckier than most with our DP signings, I think. In general, they've been decent to great performers. Magno and Santi both had an off season but I'd be willing to argue their underperformance was not entirely their fault. Magno being played out of his best position, for example.

It's easy to point to the money when we've had a bad season and say we didn't spend. I think we can all agree the spending didn't happen where it mattered most - a #9 in 2022 so we could have prevented a season like 2023. But it didn't and that's where the club dropped the ball the hardest.

For me, it's not about how much the club spends, but whether they sign players and when they do, they are the right fit for us.

Following this summer window, we are in a pretty good position roster-wise ... aside from a starting No. 9. Bakrar may be that guy, but I'd like to see another 9 come in to challenge him. Aside from that and maybe a No. 10 depending on what we think of Santi, our roster is in pretty good shape.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Are we really spending that much on DP transfer fees though?

Villa - Free
Lampard - Free
Pirlo - Free
Medina - $4M
Maxi - Fee was never reported transfer market has his value at the time as $3M I would guess we paid less as he was not playing for Leon at the time.
Mitriță - $8.5M
Martins - $4M
Magno - $8M
Santi - Transfer need not reported value at the time was estimated to be $3.5M-$5M

So in the history of the club even going off the most generous estimates for Santi and Maxi, CFG has spent a total of ~$32M on DP Transfer fees. That averages out to ~$4M per year. Adding $4M to our current annual DP total salaries of $2.1M to get us to $6.1M brings us up to the middle of the list in DP salary spend and we aren't even accounting for the fact that other teams in the league also paid transfer fees for their DPs.

I'm certain Gotham Gator was specifically talking about this current roster since that is what the salary data released is concerning and not how much the club has spent on transfer fees for DPs going back to the club's inception

Soup is correct. I am only referring to the fact that on our current roster, we have several players that we paid substantial money to obtain, and those don't show up in the salary numbers. My sense is that we pay a lot more than most teams on transfer fees, so the salary numbers don't really indicate our level of commitment. Plus, our roster strategy now is a lot different than it was; we used to sign big name players at high salaries on free transfers. Now, it's the opposite.

Looking just at our current DPs, Magno was $8.78 million and Martins was $4.40 (both according to TM & converting from Euros to Dollars). Santi Rodriguez is trickier, because his transfer fee from our sister club is not public, but we do know that Torque bought him for $4.73 million. Averaging all that over a 4-year deal, and you end up with an extra $4.478 million in annualized costs that don't show up on the salary list.

Now, that's not too much different than the $4 million you have, but it would take us up to 6th on the salary list. According to the Athletic, our DP salaries were $2.112 million, so we pay twice as much in transfer fees for our DPs than in salary - that's $6.6 overall, good for 13th. As you mention, other teams do pay for players, so maybe we don't rise up quite as high as 6th and 13th, but it will still be good. We are also 6th in salary for TAM players, with two of the teams above us on that list not having any DPs.

 

[gbservis]

Soup is correct. I am only referring to the fact that on our current roster, we have several players that we paid substantial money to obtain, and those don't show up in the salary numbers. My sense is that we pay a lot more than most teams on transfer fees, so the salary numbers don't really indicate our level of commitment. Plus, our roster strategy now is a lot different than it was; we used to sign big name players at high salaries on free transfers. Now, it's the opposite.

Looking just at our current DPs, Magno was $8.78 million and Martins was $4.40 (both according to TM & converting from Euros to Dollars). Santi Rodriguez is trickier, because his transfer fee from our sister club is not public, but we do know that Torque bought him for $4.73 million. Averaging all that over a 4-year deal, and you end up with an extra $4.478 million in annualized costs that don't show up on the salary list.

Now, that's not too much different than the $4 million you have, but it would take us up to 6th on the salary list. According to the Athletic, our DP salaries were $2.112 million, so we pay twice as much in transfer fees for our DPs than in salary - that's $6.6 overall, good for 13th. As you mention, other teams do pay for players, so maybe we don't rise up quite as high as 6th and 13th, but it will still be good. We are also 6th in salary for TAM players, with two of the teams above us on that list not having any DPs.

I think your methodology is fair and I may have unrealistic expectations but falling somewhere between 6th and 13th in the league, to me, isn't good enough given our market size and the messaging we were told about CFG's ambitions when they started the club. I understand that bigger acquisitions don't always translate to success but at least the marquee teams in the league are taking big risks and going for it. I'm willing to withhold judgment until after the stadium is opened because maybe all the allotted money is going to that. After the stadium is here if the team keeps running a budget in the middle of the pack like we are Columbus or SKC that's not good enough.


To get out ahead of the "its a business" argument we can't expect them to run at a loss. Team ownership across most of the major sports comes with rapid jumps in franchise value that IMO should be included alongside annual revenue in the spending expectations we hold as fans. Yes, the team may only be marginally profitable or maybe even run at a slight loss but the NYCFC expansion fee was $100M while ESPN reported that the latest San Diego expansion fee is $500M. CFG has seen the value of their investment go but at a minimum 5x and that's not account for NYCFC being in a much larger market than San Diego and any recent growth caused by the arrival of Messi. Big teams investing in better players is an investment that will elevate the league and the value of each franchise and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an organization with the resource levels of CFG to be spending on the same levels as the other big spenders in the league. I think the same argument applies to the stadium spending. Yes, CFG is putting a considerable amount of money into the stadium but that's not a loss, they come out with a stadium in NYC and branding equity for Eithiad or CFG or whatever they want that will far exceed any investment that they make.