Being a "Supporter" Means ...

[LIblue]

The on field display yesterday was a disgrace and an embarrassment. I personally believe that they got what they deserved. Whoever thought that having them go and kick mini balls into the stands is crazy. Just another completely out of touch decision by the team.

Sure. Back them when they lose, buy put in a food effort and played with some heart. But yesterday was lacking both of those.

totally agree, I've been to every home game since day 1 and this is the first one that i've left early. It was just a total shit show from the first 5 minutes on. If the team actually played with effort and put up a good fight it wouldn't have been so bad.

I obviously don't agree with people throwing things onto the field but i'd say a performance like that definitely justifies booing at least.

 

[mgarbowski]

TV runs the ship in every single sport in America. This is not an MLS-only issue. How about during the playoffs in MLB, NHL, and NBA, where the league/teams don't even announce start times until a day before the game. Delaying a start by 25 minutes is peanuts compared to that.

Again. No kidding. It's how it's done. Baseball and football sell tickets to Sunday afternoon games and "flex" them to night games on what is a school night. That's worse than what happened yesterday too. Moreover, there are worse things happening to people right now that are unrelated to sports and TV. None of that means that what happened yesterday should be given a pass. I've spent more time on this than it deserves. Changing topics and trying to end this I'll switch to a compliment: I thought the point you made in the game thread last night about how you should never question these athletes desire, but it is fair to wonder what makes it looks like they don't care, was solid. Cheers.

 

[ManhattanValley]

First off, I'm going to take the credit for starting the 'Let's pretend we've scored a goal' chant in 235 yesterday, which has kept me amused during blowout defeats for years on end.

Anyway, I posted about this in the postgame thread last night:

Personally I feel the only problem with the atmosphere today was that it wasn't negative enough. There's no reason why the supporters' section should be sunshine and rainbows when the team is being destroyed starting from the third minute, and I'd rather it stayed that way. If people want our team to be like Timbers fans, singing mindlessly for the entire game, irrespective of what's happening on the field, then good for them. But if I see the team rolling over 120 seconds into the game, then I don't see why I should spend the next 88 minutes singing their praises as if me paying their wages is A-OK. When the team lets us down to the extent to which it did today, I'm more than happy to conserve the energy that would usually go towards encouraging them, and focus it on letting them know that they've let us down. I've never been so proud to be an NYCFC fan as I was when I saw those bullshit miniature footballs sent back after the final whistle. Fuck this team, and fuck them if they think they deserve my adulation today. Supporting this team is a two-way street.

I was angry when I posted that, but I feel the same today. Anyway, let me take the opening post's bullet points in order.

• Coming off a 5-game unbeaten streak our SS chanted, "We're fucking shit."
• Bottle(s) thrown onto the field.
• Repeated booing.
• And when our players, our team, who we supposedly "support", came to the north side of the field after the game to throw balls into the crowd, they were greeted with the chant, "Throw it back," which at least one "supporter" did.

• 
  

1. Chanting "We're fucking shit" was a factually accurate assessment of the game. Gallows humour seemed more appropriate to me than hailing our team's brilliance.
2. Didn't see bottles thrown on the field, but I was amazed the Red Bulls players didn't take any missiles after the second goal celebration. If I had run up to some Red Bulls fans outside the stadium cupping my ears, I would have expected a lot more than an empty water bottle in reply.
3. Is booing really that bad? Really?
4. As I said above, I'm not obliged to give the players their moment of post-game glory, any more than they're not obliged to play well and keep me happy and entertained. As fans we only have so many ways to convey how we feel to the players. If they were forced to throw those balls into the stands, I hope it was a teachable moment for both them and the club.

From reading the RBNJ postgame thread, most of you seem to agree with this behavior. But to me, this isn't "support". This is the definition of being a fair weather fan. I'd even go so far as to say, this is the behavior of "plastic supporters" who aren't really about lifting their team, but rather, simply want a wealthy parent to splash cash to buy them wins.

We were all so gaga over the Portland supporters and their atmosphere. And while they've never been beaten 7-0 at home by a rival, I can't imagine they'd react the way we did. And how did we react?

I'm not one to dictate what "real" or "plastic" supporters are. I have a pretty clear idea in my own head of what it means, but everyone feels different, and NYCFC is a big melting pot of different approaches. To me, singing for 90 minutes straight, irrespective of what's happening on the field, isn't supporting the team, it's football fan cosplay. I go to football to inexplicably put the fate of my weekend in the hands of 11 guys I've never met. Being as loud as you can, and singing songs is fun, but it doesn't mean anything to me unless it corresponds to what actually happens to my team. If I go to see a band who plays a terrible concert, I'm not going to insist everyone around me dances their ass off, even if it might mean I'd have a better time.

You might see that as being a "fairweather fan". And sure, plastic fans only support the team when they're doing well too. But they won't be back the week after a 7-0 loss. I will.

 

[JayH]

I think that the responses in this thread confirm that everyone has different perspectives on what it means to be a committed fan/supporter and what are the reasonable parameters of expression. I believe that this game was the perfect storm for heightened frustration and disappointment and, as a result, the reactions were not surprisingly on the very far end of parameters.

In my mind, under these circumstances, booing Lampard was well within the lines, booing the team and the results were as well (even though I almost never jeer my own teams' players and didn't yesterday, I felt very comfortable making an exception for Lampard). The "we are shit" chants are routine Euro cheers, so while I didn't/don't love them and wouldn't participate, I don't take too much offense (though I wish there was as much energy earlier in the game on productive chants while the stadium was instead booming with "who's your daddy chants" from the other side.)

Having the players come over to share merch with the supporters had bad idea written all over it. It was guaranteed to be a cringe-worthy moment. Someone made a bad decision to allow that.

With all of that said, there was so much that crossed the line, my line, anyone reasonable's line. No need to rehash here, but we have some serious assholes in our midst. And it's too bad and highly detrimental to all of us in many respects.

Great thread and discussion by the way. And no eviscerating.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

The team has demonstrably busted it's ass for us. Basically passed out on the field after the Vancouver game to win. They got smashed and embarrassed by our biggest rival, but I don't think it was from a lack of caring or trying. Bad losses happen. If it were up to me, I'd prefer the supporters cheered them and tried to pick up their spirits rather than kick them when they are down.

Being a supporter is saying, you are one of us, we win and lose as a family. Being a fan is saying I paid good money and you disappointed me.

You see it in parenting all the time, positive parenting vs punishing parenting.

Neither is wrong, but if I was a player i know who I would respect more.

We all want soccer supporting to be different than the other sports we've given up on, we need to be different fans if we want that.

 

[Jock]

First off, I'm going to take the credit for starting the 'Let's pretend we've scored a goal' chant in 235 yesterday

Highlight of the day, that was. A lot of people stared at us cheering and had no idea why.

 

[Fabio]

The game of yesterday has been a true SHAME : fuck *** Reyna, Vieira, Pirlo the dead, Brilliant etc. However always forza NYCFC !!!

 

[Ulrich]

The team has demonstrably busted it's ass for us. Basically passed out on the field after the Vancouver game to win. They got smashed and embarrassed by our biggest rival, but I don't think it was from a lack of caring or trying. Bad losses happen. If it were up to me, I'd prefer the supporters cheered them and tried to pick up their spirits rather than kick them when they are down.

Being a supporter is saying, you are one of us, we win and lose as a family. Being a fan is saying I paid good money and you disappointed me.

You see it in parenting all the time, positive parenting vs punishing parenting.

Neither is wrong, but if I was a player i know who I would respect more.

We all want soccer supporting to be different than the other sports we've given up on, we need to be different fans if we want that.

I know the point you're making but your terminology isn't right.

A Follower will be with the team as a family regardless of outcome - win or lose. However to not give feedback in the throws of turmoil is being a Blind-faith Follower.

A supporter has every right to said they paid good money and are disappointed. We are all financial supporters and backers of the team.

Followers and Supporters are both considered Fans.

 

[mgarbowski]

Great thread and discussion by the way. And no eviscerating.

I'm very impressed by the considered thoughtful posts here, pointedly excluding my lengthy ramblings.

 

[Viewfrom226]

This has indeed been a good thread. I'll share my thoughts for whatever they are worth. Take as a given that I fully support all of the criticism of things like throwing things on the field, swearing at Red Bulls fans, violence, intolerance, etc. That stuff is all ridiculous.

- For me, the negative emotion after things like yesterday is one of sadness and disappointment, not one of anger. I don't find myself getting angry at the players for paying poorly, perhaps, because I genuinely believe that they are exerting substantial effort and that players taking games off is a true rarity. I also fully believe that, as much as I think I care, I'm pretty sure they care more. Maybe it is because the pay in MLS is relatively low for most players, but I really don't think I've ever seen anyone on this team that looked like they were just cashing a paycheck over an extended period.

- I also don't find that I get mad at ownership, the front office, etc. I think that it is a product of two simultaneous emotions that are perhaps, somewhat inconsistent but land me in the same place. On the one hand, I think I have a perspective similar to what was expressed above in that I fully recognize I am a paying customer and this is a commercial enterprise, and so I don't expect more. That is the lucid, rational, adult, part of me. But the other side, which is similarly strong, is that, ultimately, I want this to be fun and I find spending time being angry at the team because they sold us a bill of goods on when Lampard would get here or because while I have genuine passion for the team, I am customer to them or in other instances isn't fun. That's the "ostrich" side of me which ignores the negative aspects in order to keep fun something that I, ultimately, enjoy tremendously on the whole.

On a less cerebral/introspective note:

- One thing this team would really benefit from is a public facing member of the front office. I think it is the Sporting KC owner who has, among other things, an informal twitter relationship with the face base. Even if it is superficial, that stuff matters to people and CFG would be well served to try to cultivate someone in that role.

- I had the same reaction as others here to some of the stuff like City Beats and the ball throwing yesterday in the moment. It seemed almost tasteless and offensive. But, I also think we need to be realistic and remember that our little universe here isn't the mainstream fan base. Frankly, there were a number of people sitting around me who seemed to be rather enjoying City Beats despite 3-0 score. And, somewhere, there is probably a 9-year old who is mighty psyched to have caught an autographed ball. Unlike us, most of the crowd probably went home, laughed at how much we sucked, and haven't thought much about it since then.

 

[ldent42]

Well, I was right in the heart of the things you have taken issue with, so I guess i'll address them.

Booing Frank Lampard, as people have suggested, is entirely justified: far too much money for far too little effort.

Booing other players at full time or half time, I also believe to be truly justified, because they were complete shit and looked like they didn't want to put any effort in. It should also be noted that I left the game hoarse from shouting encouragement all the way through as I do every game.

I was also shouting at City Beats at half time for looking too cheery when we were 3-0 down!

Throwing the balls back is almost to be expected. Few of the players even came near our section at the end of the game, because they knew they were going to receive dog's abuse and rightly so.

As for the chants of "we're fucking shit", I'm going to suggest that that is a characteristic of having so many British fans. Us Brits are self-effacing, like to joke about negatives and would rather find humour and excitement in a situation than get depressed by it. We also chanted "let's pretend we scored a goal" and then cheered, which I thought was great!

Some people left early - that seems less committed than someone who stayed for the entire 90, even if they did have a dig at the players and throw the token balls back.

TL;DR People who go along to every game and support the team can be expected to be a little riled after the worst result in our history, but it doesn't make them bad fans, just enjoying themselves in different ways.

PS also - left out of this, but things that I FOUND to be bad behaviour by fans - fights outside the stadium (before and after the game) yelling directly at individual Red Bull fans who were in our section. Swearing at and flipping off little kids who were celebrating RB goals. Don't worry about the guys who turn up and have a maudlin joke at the players who just got done in on the field, worry about the assholes.

To me, it seems that there's a huge difference between "we're fucking shit" and "let's pretend we scored a goal". The former is demoralizing and rude, the latter is funny. I can't pretend to know what it's like to be a player on the pitch, but I would imagine hearing a "we're fucking shit" chant isn't going to come across as gallows humor, but I think the pretend goal cheering would.

Throwing shit into the field or any other manner of disrespecting the stadium in which we play is never okay.

I'm going to make the likely unpopular suggestion that actively booing our own team at home is not something that should ever happen, unless under extreme circumstances - and I don't think Lampard coming in when we're 5-0 qualifies. I firmly believe the appropriate response is not booing, but the absence of cheering. If Lampard had been greeted by crickets rather than boos, the same message would've gotten across clear as day, without being quite as classless or obnoxious.

The violence between 'supporters' is more embarrassing to me than us getting our asses handed to us the way we did yesterday.

I find some of the attitudes I've seen on social media to be that of petulant children throwing tantrums. I get that football is a more 'emotional' sport than others, but I'm not okay with it. Take the fucking ball they throw at you, and leave it in the bleachers. Toss it into the Hudson. Kick it around the park to vent your frustration. Don't throw it back at the guys who just got whooped in their own house (so to speak). The players are still human beings, and frankly the extra psychological stress isn't going to help them get their shit together and reboot that unbeaten streak.

I saw on Facebook an effort to get a fan video together expressing that we still stand by the team via that "we are one"catchphrase. I think that's much more productive than "BOOOOO YOU SUCK" and throwing a cup at the field. Remember, "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed." Of course we shouldn't be celebrating and pretending it's all sunshine and rainbows when we're getting killed like we did yesterday, but I don't think turning on the team (jeering), walking out, or lashing out at them out of anger is acceptable (nor is it productive). Put your flags away. Sit down. Post sad face selfies and tag NYCFC. Take your kit off if you can do so without being cited for indecent exposure. Point is there's plenty of ways to express yourself without being overly aggressive and detrimental.

 

[FootyLovin]

After taking the day off, come back to see so many good points. I'm tempted to quote from almost everyone. Believe it or not this is the pared down version:

First, I wonder how much of my view is colored by two things:

1. I attend every game with my kids (age 11 and 13).
2. I've spent a good portion of my career helping people understand that negative thoughts and behaviors don't "get it out of your system" but rather reinforce negativity within you and with others. Positive actions, vice versa.

there is probably a 9-year old who is mighty psyched to have caught an autographed ball.

This 100%.

At the end of every game I find a young kid in my section and tell him where to stand where s/he'll almost certainly get a ball from a player. It's worked every time and those kids light up. So maybe they might have better predicted the result of kicking balls into the SS. But even there yesterday in the SS there was a poor kid who got one of the balls and the angry chants at that kid to "Throw It Back" were horrible.

To me, it seems that there's a huge difference between "we're fucking shit" and "let's pretend we scored a goal". The former is demoralizing and rude, the latter is funny.

This. For me this is partly about what's right and partly about what's effective. I think the "fucking shit" chant is neither and it's particularly sad after the unbeaten streak. My understanding is that this British tradition came out of the original chant of something like:

We always lose away
We always lose at home
You're nothing special
We lose every week

This is clever and speaks to the fans and the team all being in it together. "We're fucking shit" to me, and as Ident42 said, is just counter productive and demoralizing.

I saw on Facebook an effort to get a fan video together expressing that we still stand by the team

This is kind of my point. I find it sad that this is necessary. But because of how we acted, it seems to be. I go back to our awe at the Portland fans. I can't imagine their team has ever questioned whether they stand by them.

If it were up to me, I'd prefer the supporters cheered them and tried to pick up their spirits rather than kick them when they are down.

This.

I think it's hard to call anybody a plastic / fair weather fan when they've continued to support them game in and game out from day one.

You might see that as being a "fairweather fan". And sure, plastic fans only support the team when they're doing well too. But they won't be back the week after a 7-0 loss. I will.

I realize my mistake (one of them). Label the behavior, not the person. You can be a "Supporter" and do something that is not supportive. I think this is what happened. While in general we may be "Supporters", our actions were not supportive of our team. And FWIW I will also be there with you cheering at YS next Sunday.

Great thread and discussion by the way. And no eviscerating.

Thanks. To you and all.

And ultimately, I don't think anything sums this all up better than this:

Being A Supporter In This Game is First Foremost and Forever The Right To Be BAT SHIT CRAZY About a team or a player!!!

 

[Angela Miller]

After taking the day off, come back to see so many good points. I'm tempted to quote from almost everyone. Believe it or not this is the pared down version:

First, I wonder how much of my view is colored by two things:

1. I attend every game with my kids (age 11 and 13).
2. I've spent a good portion of my career helping people understand that negative thoughts and behaviors don't "get it out of your system" but rather reinforce negativity within you and with others. Positive actions, vice versa.

This 100%.

At the end of every game I find a young kid in my section and tell him where to stand where s/he'll almost certainly get a ball from a player. It's worked every time and those kids light up. So maybe they might have better predicted the result of kicking balls into the SS. But even there yesterday in the SS there was a poor kid who got one of the balls and the angry chants at that kid to "Throw It Back" were horrible.

This. For me this is partly about what's right and partly about what's effective. I think the "fucking shit" chant is neither and it's particularly sad after the unbeaten streak. My understanding is that this British tradition came out of the original chant of something like:

We always lose away
We always lose at home
You're nothing special
We lose every week

This is clever and speaks to the fans and the team all being in it together. "We're fucking shit" to me, and as Ident42 said, is just counter productive and demoralizing.

This is kind of my point. I find it sad that this is necessary. But because of how we acted, it seems to be. I go back to our awe at the Portland fans. I can't imagine their team has ever questioned whether they stand by them.

This.


I realize my mistake (one of them). Label the behavior, not the person. You can be a "Supporter" and do something that is not supportive. I think this is what happened. While in general we may be "Supporters", our actions were not supportive of our team. And FWIW I will also be there with you cheering at YS next Sunday.

Thanks. To you and all.

And ultimately, I don't think anything sums this all up better than this:

WOW!! THANKS Again for liking my Quote! But watch yourself darling i'm not exactly liked to well by some on this forum ! Your taking an awful chance! This may cost you friends on this forum. This i'd never want!! I can take all their hate cause my shield is the True Love i have for my Andrea!! But what the Hell do I know I'm Just his Stupid Stalker !! LMFAO and Proud of it!!

 

[JCMore]

WOW!! THANKS Again for liking my Quote! But watch yourself darling i'm not exactly liked to well by some on this forum ! Your taking an awful chance! This may cost you friends on this forum. This i'd never want!! I can take all their hate cause my shield is the True Love i have for my Andrea!! But what the Hell do I know I'm Just his Stupid Stalker !! LMFAO and Proud of it!!

She finally admitted she stalks him

 

[Midas Mulligan]

So, here's the thing - we were shit. If people chant it, whatever. I wouldn't.

I'm probably the most critical person here. I mostly do it without profanity (profanity isn't part of my criticism, it just slips in as part of my vocab)

No problem with booing Lampard, of course. And I'll probably shout Saunders that he sucks every home match. He does. If he gets paid for a job he isn't qualified to do, he should take the abuse as a value add reason he's still in the squad.

The whole team was an embarrassment. The manager looked lost. Vitriolic responses are appropriate to me. If we sit up there grinning and clapping like a damn monkey, there is nothing that suggests to me that CFG wouldn't take that as approval of the job they are doing.

The FO needs to be made aware of how damn stupid they are. They sure as hell don't listen elsewhere, so we have to make our points when we can.

I left the match, went and drank beers and hung out with my friends, including a couple of Jersey reds. I wasn't mad at them or particularly bothered. The players weren't. Manager wasn't. Why would I have my evening ruined? But here on the forum or in the stadium, I'm going to let fly the vitriol.

 

[ZYanksRule]

So I've been thinking about throwing the balls into the crowd after the game, and I'm changing my tune on that. I now think it was the right thing for them to do.

Throwing the balls into the crowd is a small way for the players/organization to thank fans for coming. No matter how bad they played, they still appreciate our attendance. Now, I think you'll agree with me that of all days to thank their fans for coming, no matter how sheepishly, handing out balls was the right thing to do.

 

[LionNYC]

I don't want to write a long post, so I'll mention a few points.
- You're free to be whatever fan you want if you paid for (season) tickets.
- Silence is better than booing or negative chants. Being so close to the field (players, bench, coaches), I would feel uncomfortable booing because they would know it's me and they would remember when times are good. I always cheered Poku last season when he started or made the bench, eventually he gave me his jersey after a game.
- Criticism is always good but the method of doing so is vastly important. Take your anger out on here or in emails to the front office.
- Towards the end of the match I was just saying, "Come on RJ," "Come on Jack," Come on Mata," etc. Or "Fight to the end." Doesn't matter what the score is, just give them support until the final minute but if you can't just watch and don't say anything.
- After the match I went up to the sideline board and applauded until all the players left the field. Why did I do this? Because it's what I do for every game regardless of the outcome.

 

[CP_Scouse]

I pay NYCFC money, which i earn, to represent me and where im from. If they cannot do that, then i have the right as an individual to boo andget tight. Just like a shareholder gets tight when his company does poorly for a quarter, i get tight when the team poorly represents me and my city

 

[Davo15]

This. For me this is partly about what's right and partly about what's effective. I think the "fucking shit" chant is neither and it's particularly sad after the unbeaten streak. My understanding is that this British tradition came out of the original chant of something like:

We always lose away
We always lose at home
You're nothing special
We lose every week

This is clever and speaks to the fans and the team all being in it together. "We're fucking shit" to me, and as Ident42 said, is just counter productive and demoralizing.

:

"We never win at home
and we never win away
We lost last week
and we lost today
We don't give a fuck
'Cos we're all pissed up
MCFC OK"

From the good old bad old days before (Manchester) City had big money and were largely hard luck plucky underdogs

 

[Angela Miller]

Good One there Mr JC Moore and to your fan base I never will deny i stalk! But there's a line here i'd never cross People! Really ! I mean Really now!! I mean no harm to anyone! Can some state that with the truth on their side?! Let's for God Sake Stop The Hate and Drama !! It's up to you NY! NY!