Explaining To Someone Why The Mls Has Playoffs And Why Nycfc Won't Battle Relegation

[jaycrewz]

So I was catching up with my friend. He's on vacation visiting from France. We met in college as his school trades students with my alma mater for study abroad programs. I was telling him how much I enjoyed the fact that finally the largest city in the USA has a soccer team. And I said it was very important to our league to put a team in the mecca and cultural hub of this nation.

Then he asked "Jay...thats really great. But I dont understand why MLS has team names like Sporting and Real, your league brings in Manchester City owners, but refuses use relegation, and refuses to get rid of playoffs. And no offense...Ive watched your NY team...and they would be relegated in France". This is something Ive encountered before with Europeans and even Americans that want to copy Europe.

This is how I broke it down to him:

1. Competition - As capitalist as American society is when it comes to business and politics, our sports are very socialist. Pretty much the opposite of Europe in a way. Americans value competition in their leagues, and would be bored to tears if they saw the same 2 to 4 teams compete for the title ever year. In some European leagues its so bad that only 2 teams have a chance year in and year out.

La Liga is a great example despite what Atletico did last year. Be happy that Ligue 1 isnt as bad as many European leagues are. Also, isnt the Euros, Champions League and World Cup all playoffs? You have regular season group play, and then knockouts. Which is why I dont understand the problem people have with MLS. Salary caps, luxury taxes, TV revenue sharing, player drafts, and other rules are supposed to make the league more satisfying for fans.

How would you feel if you were a fan on a middle table first division team that never wins the league, never fights relegation, and never wins cups? There are a lot of those teams in Europe...and with the spending big clubs do, and the poaching of players, what chance do they have? Isnt the goal of the game is to win? Isnt that the goal of playing in the league?

While we still see dynasties in American sports, its a lot harder to do...and you cannot simply throw cash around and expect to win. You have to draft and sign players carefully, and deal with the rules and penalties regarding finances. Its not as simple as a rich foreign businessman buying a team and turning them into title contenders. A Russian tried that with one of our NBA teams and failed (Brooklyn Nets)...but we've seen Man City win a title and Cardiff City get promoted using this strategy.

2. Promotion/Relegation cant work in the USA - Yes I am saying it will never work. In Europe, many countries have soccer as their utmost popular sport by a large margin. And even in countries without this big margin, there arent 5 big sports filling arenas like in the USA. Our population and diversity of popular sports allows for this. Im not saying there arent very popular sports in Europe besides soccer. Im saying that their popularity is different.

The USA has the top 5 sports, then also has NASCAR, tennis, and golf getting good interest. Then theres combat sports getting good interest depending on whos fighting. In Europe soccer has had generations and over a century of growth. In the USA we have baseball, gridiron football, and hockey as our oldest leagues...then basketball and soccer come next. Soccer hasnt had over 100 years to gain a foothold in our country. So while in Europe its common to see 2nd division teams with 20,000 seat stadiums that can be filled up during big matches...youll never see that in the USA.

Our athletes and fan interest was spread out amongst the first division in several sports...and these sports typically play in 20,000 seat stadiums or larger. Lower division clubs typically dont have die hard fans. The spectators are usually casuals who appreciate the sport and enjoy having a local team in their area (which is usually a smaller population). Promotion and relegation would destroy American teams because our sporting culture was never built around it. We already have problems with certain 1st division teams staying afloat.

The quickest way to kill NYCFC would be to relegate us if we finish at the bottom of the MLS. Our TV contracts would be gone with the exception of the Yankee network. And fan interest would plummet because of us not being in the top division. Unlike Europe, our soccer teams dont have long local histories...and our sporting culture wouldnt be able to support all the things that come with relegation.

 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

You're right about promotion and relegation. It can never work here. No investor is going to put money into a team that could lose a good chunk of its value upon relegation.

But playoffs, at least the way MLS does them, are shit. They were used only because the original MLS owners thought Americans were too stupid to understand a league that didn't have them.

I can accept the idea that a single table was not going to be right for MLS. But there were always other solutions available.

If the league wanted to have a system that guaranteed a final to determine the league champion, it could have had one match pitting the eastern champ and the western champ. When there were enough teams for four divisions, there could have been a tournament pitting the four divisional champs.

Instead, MLS playoffs have always allowed multiple finishers to enter the playoff tournament. But the flaw in MLS playoffs is that they don't create a difference between places. It would always have been possible to have a system whereby the top three in each conference qualify, #2 hosts #3 as #1 gets a bye, and then the #2 vs. #3 winner plays at the home of #1 to produce the conference champions, who finally play each other for the league title. This would allow multiple teams to qualify, while preserving the value of each place in the finishing order.

But, no. MLS playoff ties have always been multiple-match affairs (for a while first-to-five-points; for most of the league's history two-legged ties) that destroy the advantage of being the higher seed. It doesn't much matter whether you finish 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or whatever -- as of this year down to 6th, as all the playoff teams have essentially the same shot at the title.

The result of this is that the regular season competition is undermined. Especially the early season is robbed of meaning, as a team which has one win in eleven matches can be three points out of a playoff spot. (That's us that I am talking about. There are examples of this every year.)

The early part of an MLS season is thus no more than a glorified pre-season. This is, objectively speaking, stupid. Yet there are MLS fans who defend this, out of some twisted emotional identification with the league that is beneath any adult capable of reason.

So, when we are talking about MLS with football fans from other countries, we should be clear that promotion and relegation is not possible -- nor really desireable -- in the sporting landscape of the U.S. But we shouldn't be making excuses for the absurd way that MLS has always run its playoffs, especially considering the fact that there always were other better alternative playoff systems.

 

[Gavin23]

Get rid of playoffs and forget about pro/reg. Id like to see a single table too.

 

[sbrylski]

Instead, MLS playoffs have always allowed multiple finishers to enter the playoff tournament. But the flaw in MLS playoffs is that they don't create a difference between places. It would always have been possible to have a system whereby the top three in each conference qualify, #2 hosts #3 as #1 gets a bye, and then the #2 vs. #3 winner plays at the home of #1 to produce the conference champions, who finally play each other for the league title. This would allow multiple teams to qualify, while preserving the value of each place in the finishing order.

Agreed. There needs to be significant advantages for each spot your are able to rise in the standings.

My solution is to run a group stage before the knockout playoffs. The regular season should be about winning your region, and the group stage is about qualifying nationally for the knockout playoffs. (i.e. conference = EPL, group stage = Champions League)

In the group stage, all the regional winners host all their games. Having 3 home playoff games is their big advantage.

And you can accomplish a group stage by only adding one additional game to a two-leg first round.

 

[sbrylski]

Get rid of playoffs and forget about pro/reg. Id like to see a single table too.

This would be the most boring thing ever and will never happen.

 

[Calmness Personified]

How would you feel if you were a fan on a middle table first division team that never wins the league, never fights relegation, and never wins cups? There are a lot of those teams in Europe...and with the spending big clubs do, and the poaching of players, what chance do they have? Isnt the goal of the game is to win? Isnt that the goal of playing in the league?

There isn't that many of these teams in Europe, some teams might finish mid table for 3 or 4 years in a row but there is always the chance of winning a cup.

 

[Keith Putnam]

This would be the most boring thing ever and will never happen.

Do you feel going just by the table doesn't work without the relegation threat?

 

[FredMertz]

1. Competition - As capitalist as American society is when it comes to business and politics, our sports are very socialist. Pretty much the opposite of Europe in a way. Americans value competition in their leagues, and would be bored to tears if they saw the same 2 to 4 teams compete for the title ever year.

This is actually not true -- ratings, attendance and sponsorship dollars traditionally are at their peak when there are dominant, dynastic teams. It's been the case in all of the non-MLS majors.

The reason why there can not be promotion/relegation in the US is quite simple: because there is no promotion/relegation in the US.

If it's not part of a league from the get-go, there is no way to implement it. Can you imagine the lawsuits if MLS tried to change to promotion/relegation?

As I've said before, it also eliminates the #1 cash cow of the league -- expansion fees.

 

[jaycrewz]

Do you feel going just by the table doesn't work without the relegation threat?

As in, who wants to watch a league when the title is decided weeks before the end of the season? Playoffs are one of the most exciting things in North American sports, even though foreigners seem to hate them.

But as I said earlier, the Euros, Gold Cup, World Cup and Champions Leagues are all playoffs type formats. The MLS just needs to implement their playoffs better.

 

[jaycrewz]

Agreed. There needs to be significant advantages for each spot your are able to rise in the standings.

My solution is to run a group stage before the knockout playoffs. The regular season should be about winning your region, and the group stage is about qualifying nationally for the knockout playoffs. (i.e. conference = EPL, group stage = Champions League)

In the group stage, all the regional winners host all their games. Having 3 home playoff games is their big advantage.

And you can accomplish a group stage by only adding one additional game to a two-leg first round.

I agree the playoffs need tweaking.

First off, in my opinion, its stupid to have 12 teams make the playoffs in a 20 team league. Thats over half the teams. Its ridiculous. Secondly, there needs to be a benefit to getting the higher seeds....maybe like a automatic round bye to the conference championship. Or the home playoff thing as you said.

But the big thing for me is letting so many teams in, when the league is only 20 teams. That devalues the regular season way too much.

 

[sbrylski]

Do you feel going just by the table doesn't work without the relegation threat?

No relegation threat, and no significant Champions League or Euro qualification. Not to mention scheduling and travel issues with single table.

Ideally, nearly every position a team moves up or down in the standing means something. In a single table in America, you're either first or you might as well be last.

As an example, if you did something like this, there's always a benefit to climbing up one spot on the regular season standings:

Team 1 - Group Stage, 3 home games
Team 2 - Group Stage, 2 home games
Team 3 - Group Stage, 1 home game
Team 4 - Play-in home, 0 Group Stage home games
Team 5 - Play-in away
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8