MLS - September 18 - Philadelphia (Home - YS)

[moogoo]

Apparently (credit to city boys podcast ) Cushing gave a reason for Martinez being taken off was that he didn’t have a whole preseason. What??? That’s nine months ago and what does that have to do with today’s game?

yea, if that is an actual reason he gave, it seems like complete bs. he's been playing plenty of minutes and had nearly a full season of training. that alone should be enough to be match fit. he sure as hell doesn't look sluggish to me. the subs have always felt like timed/scheduled subs instead of martinez is gassed, we gotta get him off.

there's no reason to take off your best attacker when you're chasing goals unless he is visibly gassed or injured. Didn't look like martinez was gassed or "faded" as cushing put it to me. but I wasn't at the stadium either.

 

[LionNYC]

Keaton’s G-xG for the match affording to FotMob was -1.2. One more big miss and he would have xG’d the entire Union team.

The team just wasn’t ready for Wednesday. They were and are probably wrapping requests from family and friends for comped tickets for Miami.

 

[moogoo]

Keaton’s G-xG for the match affording to FotMob was -1.2. One more big miss and he would have xG’d the entire Union team.

The team just wasn’t ready for Wednesday. They were and are probably wrapping requests from family and friends for comped tickets for Miami.

I feel bad for Keaton. He's never been a clinical finisher. He's missed plenty of chances which we probably would have called sitters. He worked hard yesterday. Definitely stood out to me with his progressive play and attacking runs. It just wasn't working for anybody yesterday. Lots of flubs all over the field. Defensively, Tanis held us together and when Nick took him off, things got worse.

unrelated side note: i really wish we didn't do a zone defense on corners. it's just asking to be punished.

 

[CCMore]

I remember being in charge of the Cushingout chant here on the forum, then during the winning streak I hate to say I was very Cushingin but I definitely let go of the needing to drop him. Now I feel like I should have kept with my convictions. Obviously it’s going to sound very revisionist to say now but I still felt that even in our excellent run of form, we were always so close to teetering out of control and fall apart.

 

[SoupInNYC]

I feel bad for Keaton. He's never been a clinical finisher. He's missed plenty of chances which we probably would have called sitters. He worked hard yesterday. Definitely stood out to me with his progressive play and attacking runs. It just wasn't working for anybody yesterday. Lots of flubs all over the field. Defensively, Tanis held us together and when Nick took him off, things got worse.

Keaton led all of MLS last night in Goals Added per ASA. I'm hoping to put together a video later today.

 

[RunningWise]

I feel bad for Keaton. He's never been a clinical finisher. He's missed plenty of chances which we probably would have called sitters. He worked hard yesterday. Definitely stood out to me with his progressive play and attacking runs. It just wasn't working for anybody yesterday. Lots of flubs all over the field. Defensively, Tanis held us together and when Nick took him off, things got worse.

unrelated side note: i really wish we didn't do a zone defense on corners. it's just asking to be punished.

I think Keaton has had a very polarizing season and as someone who is getting frustrated with him it feels like the downs are happening more frequently than the ups.

When he’s on he is everywhere and making strong decisions and crisp passes. He’s not the best defender but he can make trouble for the opposing team in the midfield and break up passes/runs.

But what we saw yesterday was definitely a bad game. He made a ton of bad passes with the worst flub leading to that goal. He gave up the ball a lot. Also, I was right behind the goal for his first shot. That was right at the keeper. While the pace may have been hot on it the keeper didn’t make any crazy move to get in front of it. Add it that defensively he couldn’t seem to keep up with the players and it was a bad game. Final addition so this might not flow but when he is playing poorly his body language is garbage and he makes stupid and emotional attacks on the other players. He did the first one and then Wolf did one and then others. He doesn’t lead by example.

I’m open to someone proving me wrong but I think Keaton is so important to the team and with his experience I expect more consistency. He’s not a development player and if he is playing this way how is he helping his teammates be better.

 

[SoupInNYC]

unrelated side note: i really wish we didn't do a zone defense on corners. it's just asking to be punished.

NYCFC have only allowed 3 goals from corners this year. Tied for 7th fewest in the league.

Last night's goal was a combination of two things:

1. Philly's delivery went to the one exact spot where it could kill NYC, right at the tail end of Glesnes' run. Philly definitely deserves a ton of credit for that.
2. From an NYCFC side of things, Mitja Ilenic did absolutely nothing to slow Glesnes down. The hybrid system is predicated on blocking runners and slowing down their runs and Ilenic did absolutely none of that. That made it close to impossible for Thiago Martins to win that header and clear it out.

 

[Shwafta]

After having a night to sleep on it, I do think we didn't deserve the scoreline and that it wasn't as bad as I felt after the match. But it's still something I can't believe.

Side note - what ever did happen to our supposed "we figured out how to score corners!!" a few years ago?

 

[moogoo]

NYCFC have only allowed 3 goals from corners this year. Tied for 7th fewest in the league.

Last night's goal was a combination of two things:

1. Philly's delivery went to the one exact spot where it could kill NYC, right at the tail end of Glesnes' run. Philly definitely deserves a ton of credit for that.
2. From an NYCFC side of things, Mitja Ilenic did absolutely nothing to slow Glesnes down. The hybrid system is predicated on blocking runners and slowing down their runs and Ilenic did absolutely none of that. That made it close to impossible for Thiago Martins to win that header and clear it out.

my desire not to play zone defense on corners is just because i prefer it. has nothing to do any particular play. point #2 you made above is exactly why zone defense fails. A good set piece side will take advantage of poor, slower, weaker run blockers.

I just think man to man is a better defensive setup. everyone has their mark and no one can say "i thought you were gonna take the ball/man"

 

[moogoo]

I think Keaton has had a very polarizing season and as someone who is getting frustrated with him it feels like the downs are happening more frequently than the ups.

When he’s on he is everywhere and making strong decisions and crisp passes. He’s not the best defender but he can make trouble for the opposing team in the midfield and break up passes/runs.

But what we saw yesterday was definitely a bad game. He made a ton of bad passes with the worst flub leading to that goal. He gave up the ball a lot. Also, I was right behind the goal for his first shot. That was right at the keeper. While the pace may have been hot on it the keeper didn’t make any crazy move to get in front of it. Add it that defensively he couldn’t seem to keep up with the players and it was a bad game. Final addition so this might not flow but when he is playing poorly his body language is garbage and he makes stupid and emotional attacks on the other players. He did the first one and then Wolf did one and then others. He doesn’t lead by example.

I’m open to someone proving me wrong but I think Keaton is so important to the team and with his experience I expect more consistency. He’s not a development player and if he is playing this way how is he helping his teammates be better.

I agree that he should lead by example and keep a cool head. he's been throwing his hands up at the ref a lot this season from what I've noticed and perhaps it's affecting his game mentally? he does have a new child and lack of sleep and the stress of all that could be contributing. hopefully things get better and he snaps back into elite parks form in the playoffs.

The shot straight at the keeper is not an easy skill. He had to time the ball coming at him and ensure that it doesn't fly off target. It's not easy to do at training let alone in a match when you aren't really an attacker. He did great to even get it on target and was just unlucky not to put the ball farther away to the corners. the one he missed off the post is probably worse because he was in control of the ball and just needed to dink it by the keeper.

 

[gbservis]

After having a night to sleep on it, I do think we didn't deserve the scoreline and that it wasn't as bad as I felt after the match. But it's still something I can't believe.

Side note - what ever did happen to our supposed "we figured out how to score corners!!" a few years ago?

We've been cursed on all free kicks since Pirlo arrived, took free kicks away from Villa, and then proceeded to spend the next couple of seasons kicking the ball over the crossbar.

 

[mgarbowski]

I don't get the desire to presume Cushing is lying about why he takes Martinez out. Bad coaches of a struggling team with one obviously productive player do not arbitrarily reduce that player's minutes and lie about why just because. Rather, they are most likely to run that player into the ground because they don't know what else to do.
The Occam's Razor answer to why Martinez never plays 90 is there's something in the physio data or something Martinez is telling them and to their credit they are honoring it instead of just pushing him past exhaustion to try to save their collective asses. Also if anyone can point to any game when Martinez was subbed off and looked unhappy about it please show me. There's enough wrong with the team without assuming motivations that don't make sense even if you believe Cushing is dumber than a corner flag. You can't even assume a personality or work rate issue because Cushing obviously likes Martinez and rates him highly, having moved him from bench winger to starting striker.

 

[RunningWise]

I agree that he should lead by example and keep a cool head. he's been throwing his hands up at the ref a lot this season from what I've noticed and perhaps it's affecting his game mentally? he does have a new child and lack of sleep and the stress of all that could be contributing. hopefully things get better and he snaps back into elite parks form in the playoffs.

The shot straight at the keeper is not an easy skill. He had to time the ball coming at him and ensure that it doesn't fly off target. It's not easy to do at training let alone in a match when you aren't really an attacker. He did great to even get it on target and was just unlucky not to put the ball farther away to the corners. the one he missed off the post is probably worse because he was in control of the ball and just needed to dink it by the keeper.

Fair enough on that shot at the keeper. At this point I’m so frustrated with his play that I’m negative about it all.

 

[Shwafta]

We've been cursed on all free kicks since Pirlo arrived, took free kicks away from Villa, and then proceeded to spend the next couple of seasons kicking the ball over the crossbar.

I feel like every time we get up for a corner I can ignore it because almost nothing happens.

according to fbref we have 149 corners this season. We've also attempted 405 passes from free kicks New York City FC Match Logs (Goal and Shot Creation), All Competitions | FBref.com
From all those, and yes I know a lot of those free kicks might not have been in goal range, we've only had 1 that lead to a goal and 43 that lead to a shot.


I don't know the stats too much, can anyone help me and tell me if PassDead on GCA/SCA means that it's the direct pass before the shot attempt or goal? Or does it include all within a sequence leading to a shot/Goal?

-EDIT- I found the answer right there on that screen.

Goal-Creating Actions: The two offensive actions directly leading to a goal, such as passes, take-ons and drawing fouls. Note: A single player can receive credit for multiple actions and the shot-taker can also receive credit.

-EDIT END-
Also for completeness, here's a list of all the teams and their equivalent stat:


... and the reverse, teams that score dead balls against...

 

[SoupInNYC]

my desire not to play zone defense on corners is just because i prefer it. has nothing to do any particular play. point #2 you made above is exactly why zone defense fails. A good set piece side will take advantage of poor, slower, weaker run blockers.

I just think man to man is a better defensive setup. everyone has their mark and no one can say "i thought you were gonna take the ball/man"

The good thing with NYCFC's hybrid scheme is nobody can say "I thought you were gonna take the ball/man" either. Glesnes was Ilenic's mark. The ball was Thiago Martins'. Ilenic failing so badly (I legitimately think that was the worst run allowed off a corner I've seen for NYCFC, I don't think this is hyperbole or recency bias, but it could be perhaps), did not allow Thiago Martins to win the ball because it allowed Glesnes momentum and the ability to jump higher and attack the ball harder.

"A good set piece side will take advantage of poor, slower, weaker run blockers. " - this also applies for every man-to-man scheme.

From 2015-2016, NYCFC used a man-to-man marking scheme in defending corners and they allowed the second most goals off of corners in that span.

Since switching to the hybrid scheme in 2017, have allowed the second fewest goals off of corner kicks (excluding expansion teams who joined later). Philly has allowed 24, NYCFC 25.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

Analyzing last night's game is a fool's errand. Once Freese, essentially, scored on himself, it was clear it was one of those games. The only suspense was whether there would be more defensive lapses or offensive miscues. Games like that happen to all teams, especailly younger teams.

Big picture, it is clear that until the stadium opens the team plans to invest in young talent over established players. NYCFC is essentially a minor league team hoping to develop. If one accepts this for the next two plus years, it will make the watching experience much easier. If that is not worth money spent on tickets, etc., then maybe it is best to wait until 2027.

I cannot disagree with the young development approach as a build up to 2027. It makes sense to try to find an infrastructue into which a few name brand stars could be dropped. That noted, the key is development - and to this point I question how well the current staff can develop attacking players. Credit needs to be given for Gray and O'Toole improving, but other than glimpes from Jones, it isn't clear how any of the bushel of young attackers has improved under the Cushing regime.

If he can't build up the young attackers, then perhaps a new staff is in order. Or, sign a slew of young defenders for development instead.

 

[moogoo]

The good thing with NYCFC's hybrid scheme is nobody can say "I thought you were gonna take the ball/man" either. Glesnes was Ilenic's mark. The ball was Thiago Martins'. Ilenic failing so badly (I legitimately think that was the worst run allowed off a corner I've seen for NYCFC, I don't think this is hyperbole or recency bias, but it could be perhaps), did not allow Thiago Martins to win the ball because it allowed Glesnes momentum and the ability to jump higher and attack the ball harder.

"A good set piece side will take advantage of poor, slower, weaker run blockers. " - this also applies for every man-to-man scheme.

From 2015-2016, NYCFC used a man-to-man marking scheme in defending corners and they allowed the second most goals off of corners in that span.

Since switching to the hybrid scheme in 2017, have allowed the second fewest goals off of corner kicks (excluding expansion teams who joined later). Philly has allowed 24, NYCFC 25.

I disagree. The hybrid defensive can definitely lead to confusion. I'm not sure if the run blockers in our system pick out a guy or if they simply watch their zone and block any runners coming into it. If the latter, then they could end up passing off a guy if their "zone" has multiples and someone may not pick up anybody if those runners don't enter their zone. If they actually do pick out a man, then yea it is definitely on ilenic to block glesnes. But I would argue that in a true man marking system, the mismatch of glesnes vs ilenic would generally not happen.

There's no way a standing defender can jumper higher than and out muscle an attacker running and attacking the ball. there will only ever be one winner in that duel. Our zone header guys are already at a disadvantage if the run blockers do not do their job and if there's a mismatch, well it's just a matter of how good the service is and how good the finish is.

anyway - we could go back and forth all day. Like I said, it's a personal preference.

 

[SoupInNYC]

I disagree. The hybrid defensive can definitely lead to confusion. I'm not sure if the run blockers in our system pick out a guy or if they simply watch their zone and block any runners coming into it. If the latter, then they could end up passing off a guy if their "zone" has multiples and someone may not pick up anybody if those runners don't enter their zone. If they actually do pick out a man, then yea it is definitely on ilenic to block glesnes. But I would argue that in a true man marking system, the mismatch of glesnes vs ilenic would generally not happen.

In NYCFC's system, the run blockers have a specific man, so there is no passing them off. It's a zonal line of 4 (used to be 5) right at the 6 yard box that is responsible for clearing the ball. Everyone else is blocking runners or marking others outside the box. So there really is no confusion in this system.

There's no way a standing defender can jumper higher than and out muscle an attacker running and attacking the ball. there will only ever be one winner in that duel. Our zone header guys are already at a disadvantage if the run blockers do not do their job and if there's a mismatch, well it's just a matter of how good the service is and how good the finish is.

This is correct and is why the blockers need to do their job. Last night being Ilenic. The service was also good enough and the end result was an easy goal for Philly.

The good thing is, that this doesn't happen often for NYCFC. As noted above, the two years they ran man-to-man, second most goals allowed in the league. Since they switched, the second fewest goals allowed in the league.

 

[Shwafta]

In NYCFC's system, the run blockers have a specific man, so there is no passing them off. It's a zonal line of 4 (used to be 5) right at the 6 yard box that is responsible for clearing the ball. Everyone else is blocking runners or marking others outside the box. So there really is no confusion in this system.


This is correct and is why the blockers need to do their job. Last night being Ilenic. The service was also good enough and the end result was an easy goal for Philly.

The good thing is, that this doesn't happen often for NYCFC. As noted above, the two years they ran man-to-man, second most goals allowed in the league. Since they switched, the second fewest goals allowed in the league.

Also worth noting that Philly has the most goals from dead ball situations this season. So it basically took an uncommon NYCFC (that was third goal against us from a set piece this season) lapse combined with Philly I guess being very well drilled in their routines to break through that.

 

[gbservis]

Analyzing last night's game is a fool's errand. Once Freese, essentially, scored on himself, it was clear it was one of those games. The only suspense was whether there would be more defensive lapses or offensive miscues. Games like that happen to all teams, especailly younger teams.

Big picture, it is clear that until the stadium opens the team plans to invest in young talent over established players. NYCFC is essentially a minor league team hoping to develop. If one accepts this for the next two plus years, it will make the watching experience much easier. If that is not worth money spent on tickets, etc., then maybe it is best to wait until 2027.

I cannot disagree with the young development approach as a build up to 2027. It makes sense to try to find an infrastructue into which a few name brand stars could be dropped. That noted, the key is development - and to this point I question how well the current staff can develop attacking players. Credit needs to be given for Gray and O'Toole improving, but other than glimpes from Jones, it isn't clear how any of the bushel of young attackers has improved under the Cushing regime.

If he can't build up the young attackers, then perhaps a new staff is in order. Or, sign a slew of young defenders for development instead.

I agree that we are in a development model likely until the stadium. What I don't understand is how Jovan and Ojeada fit that plan. If either player develops into the player their $7M-$8M transfer price projects them to be they will be off to Europe well before 2027. If they are still on our roster in 2027 it will be because they never reached the potential that drove their high price tags and we way over paid for them. I don't see how either scenario helps NYCFC build a foundation for success in 2027.